Posted on February 23, 2023.
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Aven Ellis has over 100 paid readers on her subscription as a Kindle Unlimited Author. Even more incredible… one of the biggest draws to her subscription is a book she is offering early access to at only 1 chapter per month. In this episode, we learn about Aven’s brilliant mindset from building a community of her readers and having a subscription content strategy that is sustainable and successful.
Aven’s subscription: https://www.patreon.com/avenellis
Aven’s website: https://avenellis.com/
#24: Episode Outline
0:00:00 Introduction and Content
0:02:16 Aven’s Subscription Success Story: How She Got Started
0:10:40 How Aven Ellis Connects with her Fans on and off her Subscription
0:17:52 The Process of Starting A Subscription
0:23:42 Custom Mailers for Authors
0:29:09 Finding Subscription Success on 1 Chapter a Month
0:32:35 How to Get Your Readers Excited for Your Subscription
0:37:56 Slow Growth + Importance of Different Revenue Streams
0:40:34 How to Price Your Subscription Tiers
0:45:32 Community Over Rankings
0:49:45 [Opportunity] Making Authors the Brands of Tomorrow
0:53:33 Aven’s Subscription Goals for 2023
0:54:43 Aven’s Last Piece of Advice to Subscription Authors
0:56:26 Conclusion
#24: Episode Outline
[00:00:00] Michael Evans: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Subscriptions for Authors podcast. Today we have a really special interview with Aen Ellis, who is one of our first subscriptions for authors success stories. I don’t wanna really take any credit before it, but I will say that she’s been part of the community probably since the beginning of her subscription.
[00:00:21] Michael Evans: And throughout her journey in the subscriptions for Authors community has grown her subscription from zero to 100 subscribers. And if our podcasts and your amazing posts on the Facebook group even helped even 1%, which she says it did, I think at least 1%. That’s amazing. We did something cool. And more than that, she did something incredible, which is create an amazing place for her fans, where now over a hundred readers pay her monthly and it makes her a second income.
[00:00:47] Michael Evans: Something that has really changed her life and helped her cover some really essential costs for her family. So we’re gonna get into how she does that. and she’s a KU author, so she’s not a serial fiction author on serialized fiction platforms. She does offer [00:01:00] early access, but one chapter per month, so not 10 chapters per week or anything like that.
[00:01:04] Michael Evans: Yet she still is making this incredible income. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk about how she’s done that, how she has this amazing subscription and how she’s now creating these wonderful experiences with our fans. Things that range from live events to physical book boxes. It’s a really fun, a wide ranging conversation, and in the end we even start talking.
[00:01:21] Michael Evans: Lipstick, the Creator Economy and the future of Commerce, and how you as an author can get in on it and capitalize the opportunity. It’s I think, one of our best podcasts, and that’s all because of you Aen. So thank you for being a wonderful guest. Thank you all for listening. If you’re not already part of the descriptions for authors community, you should join our Facebook group.
[00:01:39] Michael Evans: And if you like this podcast all I ask that you share it with a friend, we are starting a movement here. People subscription. Are going to become a bigger part of the publishing industry as we move forward in this decade. And in order to be able to build a world and build a future where we as storytellers can create CUNYs for our fans, have more power and be able to also generate some more revenue, then we have to spread the [00:02:00] word.
[00:02:00] Michael Evans: So if you can share this podcast with an author friend of yours, I’d be very grateful. But let’s get into this one. Even Ellis from zero to 100 subscribers in under a year. Pretty incredible.
[00:02:11] Michael Evans: Aven, wow, this was one I was very excited about because you have been a tremendous success in subscriptions and someone who is very near and dear, close to heart. So I would love to hear your story. For someone who doesn’t know you, who is even Ellis, what do you write?
[00:02:26] Michael Evans: And most importantly, what happened to your subscription? How did you end up starting one? How did this all come to be?
[00:02:32] Aven Ellis: Okay. I write romantic comedy and I write in different areas. I write I have a Premier League team series. I have a billionaire series. I have a Royal series. And those are my three focus.
[00:02:42] Aven Ellis: But in the past I’ve written hockey, I’ve written baseball a lot of sports. And I had, I had just turned the corner of my career about two, three years ago where I could leave my day. and right from home. And I was looking ahead to the future and the future came quickly, , cuz my husband decided to retire from his job.
[00:02:59] Aven Ellis: And I [00:03:00] was like, oh gosh, now we have to pay for insurance. And so I was looking ahead to that moment. I didn’t know that retirement was gonna come exactly at this year, but his company started to downs. And so we thought, this would be a good time. But prior to that, I had started thinking, I’m gonna have to pay for insurance.
[00:03:17] Aven Ellis: And as most good authors do, I was scrolling 20 books through 50 K. And, I just kinda do a scroll just to see what’s going on. And Emilia’s post was there and she was talking about her success with Patriot. And I’m like, oh my God, this girl just, she crushed it. Look at what she’s done. And I immediately started digging into Patreon.
[00:03:34] Aven Ellis: I looked up other authors on Patreon. I looked up, I did a Google search, authors on Patreon, and I thought, could this work for my community? And one thing I had noticed that I had thought about doing was at the back of every one of my books, I offer a bonus scene that you have to give your email to get.
[00:03:50] Aven Ellis: And it’s always a proposal. Okay? So if you want to see how X proposed to y, click here. You not believe how many people do that. And I have built my [00:04:00] newsletter list to over 10,000 subscribers just by doing a proposal bonus. Wow. At the end of each book. Yeah. And so I thought they like bonuses. Yeah. Why not do a Patreon bonus?
[00:04:13] Aven Ellis: And so I started the Patreon account in April and I’ve already got over 107 subscribers and most of ’em are at the top to. most expensive price points. And that has completely and more paid for my insurance. So I met my goal in less than 12 months with I never ever thought would happen.
[00:04:30] Aven Ellis: So that’s all thanks to Emilia. And then I joined subscription for authors. And Michael is fantastic. You’re fantastic about giving advice and I highly recommend anyone who’s watching this be active in that group. Read the Post. You will find nuggets all the time if you just. looking for them and see how you can apply them to your account.
[00:04:46] Aven Ellis: And that’s basically how it happened.
[00:04:48] Michael Evans: Wow. That’s flatter, do you even contribute any of our help to helping you, even the tiniest fitness this, but I want to dive into before you started your description where you were publishing, because a lot of times we [00:05:00] talk to authors. Subscriptions are not apples to apples.
[00:05:02] Michael Evans: Depending on where your readers from and how you’re doing it can be run up very differently. And it seems like you’re doing yours based around bonus content, but before your subs. Where were most of your readers focused? Where were you publishing?
[00:05:14] Aven Ellis: Yeah. I am a Kindle Unlimited author, so all my books are in ku, so that adds a different wrinkle to Patreon.
[00:05:20] Aven Ellis: So my income is more than 90% Kindle Unlimited. I have a very high KU rate and I have an also extremely active reader group on. with 1400 members who come in every day, they post stuff about, oh, this character would eat this, or this character would wear this.
[00:05:35] Aven Ellis: And we talk about pop culture. We talk like le, one of the big discussion posts yesterday was I posted, Hey, because I always write about food in my books, love Food Foodie. I said, Cheerios is coming out with a lemon flavor. What do we think about this? You may not believe the comments on. So they’re engaged on a daily level in the group.
[00:05:54] Aven Ellis: And so with being with Kendall Unlimited, I thought I can do bonus scenes. And another thing I did is I’m writing [00:06:00] a book exclusively for Patreon, and this is, now, this is where I dive a little bit different than what most people tell you to do on Patreon. They get one chapter a month, they’re thrilled, they absolutely love it.
[00:06:10] Aven Ellis: And it’s not as much pressure. as trying to do a piece, a chapter, a week, or a chapter every couple days. It’s one chapter a month. They’ve been subscribed since April, and sometimes I’ll give ’em to a month if I’m feeling really creative or I go, Ooh, I’m in a good space with this one. We’re on chapter 13 and I usually write 32 chapters.
[00:06:26] Aven Ellis: So we have a long way to go before this book is finished. But they’re excited about it and they look forward to it. Oh, we get a chapter the first part of the month. They always get a chapter. So that’s something that has worked tremendously well, is. Exclusive, and it’s a basketball story, exclusive basketball story only on Patreon, and that’s available at the $3 a month level.
[00:06:44] Aven Ellis: And then the rest is bonus content for every single one of the series. And that increases by level. And then the final level is you get the swag. Like I release about two books a year. So you get a paperback, you get autographed, you get the bookmarks, [00:07:00] you get stickers and a custom mailer. With that book designed, I have my artist do a custom design for the mailer that the only they will get.
[00:07:07] Aven Ellis: And so those are the different levels, but it’s. once a month novel. Surprisingly, no one complains that they don’t get more than one chapter a. . I love that. So it can work, but it, I think with Patreon, it’s really about setting reader expectations. If you, yes. If you don’t meet them or you overpromise and then all of a sudden you’re stressed out cause you cannot do all these things you promise, that’s when you start, I’m assuming you’re gonna see people drop and I just made it very clear, hey, I’ll write this once a month.
[00:07:34] Aven Ellis: You’ll get this once a month and you’re gonna get these four bonuses every month. That’s what they get, and they seem, they’re happy. So that makes me happy,
[00:07:42] Michael Evans: wow. That’s When you say readers have been with me for nine months. Is that the kind of thing where it’s the same readers, like in terms of unsubscribing things like that tend to be talked about authors get nervous.
[00:07:51] Michael Evans: How long can a reader stand my, in my subscription, if they’re only gonna be there for a few months? . That’s scary. Have your same readers for the most part, stuck with you
[00:07:59] Aven Ellis: throughout? [00:08:00] Yeah, I’ll get, like for example, last month I had two drops. But then I also had two people upgrade to the highest price point.
[00:08:06] Aven Ellis: You’re gonna always have drops. And here’s the way I look at it. When I was in college, we’re not gonna talk about how long ago that was, but when I was in college, I drank diet Coke every day. Purdue University, pop, diet Coke, walked class. I haven’t had a Diet Coke in 20 years now. I don’t hate Diet Coke.
[00:08:22] Aven Ellis: I just don’t want it anymore. And that’s gonna happen no matter what product you are promoting. And I think if you can remember that, think like a consumer think, do you buy the same thing you bought two years ago? Does it mean you don’t like the product? No. But you may have had a lifestyle change, you may have had a financial change.
[00:08:38] Aven Ellis: And I just accept that as part of the model. I just try to, Keep my current cons, customers and clients as happy. I look at them as clients. Really, it’s happy with the product that I have, and I understand that I’m, you’re not always gonna retain the same people and it may not have anything to do with what you’re
[00:08:52] Michael Evans: putting out.
[00:08:53] Michael Evans: . Yeah, that’s. . That’s a really important thing for people to remember. Like it’s always personal things. No change of our [00:09:00] preferences. I know, I have this happen. I think we all have it happen to us personally. Like we experience this all the time and I think 2% by the way, to only have two people out of a hundred plus person subscription leave is like really good.
[00:09:11] Michael Evans: I wouldn’t be concerned I was an author unless I was regularly seeing over 10% a month come out. That’s, yeah, that cause for. . But if you’re seeing anywhere from two to it spikes Some months. Like some months, yeah, it spike. That’s okay. . But if it’s regularly above 10%, I think that’s a warning
[00:09:29] Aven Ellis: sign. I would say yes, if you’re having a regular drop off and not many new subscribers, or you’re noticing they’re dropping, I would say notice that when they’re dropping, if someone signs up one month and they’re immediately dropping the next month, and you see that kind of pattern, that to me says they’re getting in, but it’s not what they wanted or not meeting their expectations.
[00:09:46] Aven Ellis: But I think you’re always gonna have some drops. But yes, I agree with you, Michael, completely. If you’re seeing that kind of number, then it’s time to look at the tiers and start playing with it. I wouldn’t shut down the shop necessarily, but okay, what can I try differently or do a poll, [00:10:00] Hey, what do you guys wanna see?
[00:10:01] Aven Ellis: And like I did, I put a poll up yesterday. Okay. I’m planning February’s content. What couples do you wanna see? Are there particular couples I haven’t written about? Do you wanna reverse point of view? Cause I only write one person point of view. So they love when I do a reverse cause. Oh shit, I’ve never heard this person ever in their head, so I offer.
[00:10:17] Aven Ellis: What would you like? And that, and then I’ll try to cater a little bit. If mentally I match sometimes they come up with ideas and I’m like, oh, I don’t know. I don’t think I can do that. Let’s have a scene, all the characters from all the series meets. And I’m like, no,
[00:10:33] Aven Ellis: I do take their feedback and I think they feel heard and that’s an important part too. Making them feel heard. I’m sure you guys do the same thing with yours.
[00:10:40] Michael Evans: Because you have a monthly live chat for your highest tier. . I do. So how does that go? Do you, I know a lot of authors ask how do you do that?
[00:10:46] Michael Evans: Do you do it on Zoom or how do you do
[00:10:48] Aven Ellis: that? I do it on Zoom, and believe it or not, on the last call we had like at one point 10 people were on, which I think is a lot considering the time zone differences. Two members, it was on a Friday night, but two people. [00:11:00] We’re on the call on Saturday from Australia, which blew my mind.
[00:11:04] Aven Ellis: Wow. They arranged their, a Australian morning, and one girl actually came in, she was at the hair salon. She was in the chair getting her haircut on Saturday, while we were all still on Friday night in the United States. She’s in Saturday getting haircut. She’s participating. She was at some point, I may just mute because I’m getting my hair.
[00:11:18] Aven Ellis: I’m, they’re putting the foil in and she was getting her highlights done and everything. I’m like, oh my gosh. But if we just. How I’m talking to you guys, you probably can tell I’m a talker. So please, if you need to just tell me, Hey, we have more questions. Just
[00:11:35] Aven Ellis: So we just talked and we talked about books and we talked about in this particular call I talked about how always I like using fashion in books. So we talked about beauty and makeup and I swatched some of my lipsticks and I was showing ’em stuff so I try to cook things that tie to the book, but a lot of times we just talk, like we were talking, we had a big conversation about Target, believe it or not, in our last call.
[00:11:53] Aven Ellis: And that Australian target is different than United States target. And if you would’ve told me, I would’ve been having that conversation. on [00:12:00] our monthly chat. I wouldn’t have called that one. .
[00:12:01] Michael Evans: So do you cause every author listening, I don’t want to say that. Everyone should do a livestream meetup.
[00:12:07] Michael Evans: I’ve , I think sub authors, it’s saying they’re very comfortable with and sub authors it, it’s not. And if you’re not comfortable with something, I never want to tell you to do it. But you seem to love it. And I’m curious for authors who might be interested in doing a live meet. Over Zoom.
[00:12:19] Michael Evans: You could do a live meetup in I R L too. That’s a whole other challenge. . But speaking about a digital monthly meetup as part of a subscription, are you planning these out? What is the prep for it? How is the first time you did it? Was it scary being like, I’m gonna be on a call with my readers.
[00:12:33] Michael Evans: What is it gonna go like?
[00:12:35] Aven Ellis: It really wasn’t for me. But again, I’m a talker if you’re a talker, things are different. Hey, I get to have a conversation with some new people who don’t, cause sometimes when I talk too much, I can see it in my own family.
[00:12:44] Aven Ellis: They start to do, yeah, okay. And, they’re ready for to move on, for me to be quiet. These were people who were excited to talk to me, so I was excited to talk to them. But really I didn’t do a lot of prep for it, to be honest. I just think, okay, maybe. And you’re trying to figure it out.
[00:12:59] Aven Ellis: We’re, this [00:13:00] is, we’ve only had two calls, so we’re still figuring out how This’s gonna run and stuff. The first one I was trying to make a little more structured and it didn’t work as well for me. And some of them were really shy at first. They were like two of ’em told me, yeah, I’m having a fan girl moment.
[00:13:11] Aven Ellis: I’m like, oh God no. We’re not having fan girl moments. We’re just talking. We’re just . just, We’re just talking. We’re gonna have a good time. So now it’s becoming more conversational and they’re starting to talk to each other, which has been really cool. Yes. Magic. That’s awesome.
[00:13:23] Aven Ellis: Yeah. Yeah. It takes a while. It takes a while to get your readers to talk to each other. You have to facilitate that, but that’s awesome. Second time. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a, and like I said, the first phone call we had four. And then the next phone call we had 10. And it really just depends on people’s schedule.
[00:13:40] Aven Ellis: Cause I always put a pull up, this is one thing I do, what day eight and time would be? You would like to have a months call. So that way I can see what really works best for most people, especially cuz I had no idea I was gonna have Australians joining. So now I have to take that into consideration that.
[00:13:54] Aven Ellis: The Australians joined for two weeks in a row for two months, two calls in a row. So I’m like, okay, I need to count that in cuz they really [00:14:00] want to participate and be a part of this. Oh,
[00:14:01] Michael Evans: I just, I love that so much and I think this is showing people and I’m just so happy to be talking to you that there’s something about a membership of subscription we get all the time.
[00:14:11] Michael Evans: This question from authors, which. , there’s already kind lited. People can pay $10 a month to access a million books. Why would anyone ever pay me $10 a month when I’m, I don’t think anyone can write a million books a month so you know why? Why would anyone pay me that? But you’re showing that this is something more than just a book.
[00:14:30] Michael Evans: This is an experience. This is hanging out with friends, and, that is really unique. I think that this is going to continue to go really well for you and that this. Liveing event will really be a great thing for your fandom. I’m hopeful.
[00:14:43] Aven Ellis: Thank you. And part of it is the only thing I wish was a little different with Patreon is there’s not really a good way for them to engage with each other unless I post something they can comment, so that’s why I do think the Facebook reader group is still an important tool to have. I know some people just wanna put that all, delete all and if [00:15:00] you’re not comfortable with that, don’t do it. But again, for two times, just this week alone, I’ve had two Patreon people post in that reader group.
[00:15:06] Aven Ellis: Something from Patreon oh my gosh, one girl just posted last night. I started the Miami Hoops, the basketball series and Patreon, and she said, I joined at this level so I could read everything. She joined at the $10 level, she said, but I’m obsessed with this book. I’ve already read all 13 chapters and I absolutely cannot wait for chapter 14.
[00:15:22] Aven Ellis: That’s a great What’s the word? I’m looking, you think I would know the word. I talk so much and I write so much and I can’t find the word. But great promotional piece, so to speak. Yeah. In that reader group with 1400 people seeing, oh wow, I’m Patreon, they’re really liking this story and another one posted a picture of the book I sent them, and I think it’s a strong cross promotional tool to get people to join Patreon.
[00:15:42] Aven Ellis: So I wouldn’t necessarily ever close that. I did try Mighty Networks one, but what was interesting about that, people do not come over. They did not come over. It was weird, it was different. Facebook, they can check on their kids, they can check on their fitness check-in, and they can scroll through my thing all at the same time.
[00:15:59] Aven Ellis: Where the mining [00:16:00] networks are logging in just to look at you. And that’s something I would just recommend to consider if you’re looking for alternate platforms. , because I really wanted it to work and it never worked. I had 300 people sign up and I’d post and maybe one person would comment. So that was something that did not work personally for me, was finding that space outside of Facebook that kinda a.
[00:16:18] Aven Ellis: Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me either, but I like going back a little bit. When we were talking about the Facebook groups, what I found works what is really cool is I’ve seen a lot of, my readers and my friends who also have subscriptions, they’re readers, go into like really popular Facebook groups and say oh my gosh, , you know how like in some romance groups, people are asking for specific stories.
[00:16:43] Aven Ellis: Our readers will go into those groups and be like, oh my gosh. This author writes exactly what you’re looking for and her books are, she has a subscription where all of her books are, you should definitely check it out and they will go into these big groups and promote for you. Oh my God, that’s so amazing, that connection.
[00:16:59] Aven Ellis: If [00:17:00] you have that good connection with your readers, they’ll do that for you and Yeah, mind blowing it isn’t it? I don’t know if I’ve had that yet cause no one’s, I’ve not been tagged in anything like that. But it’s hearing that I’m not surprised for you at all. You have such a.
[00:17:14] Aven Ellis: Patreon base and they’re very passionate about it, and. Yeah, I would just not be afraid to try it. What do you have to lose by trying That’s my thing.
[00:17:21] Michael Evans: Yeah. That’s a great point because now I want to talk about you starting because , you had an existing leadership and can unlimit it and or largely and can unlimit it and you’re switching to this whole.
[00:17:33] Michael Evans: Additional Cuz you’re still in and that’s a great revenue stream and a great place to find the readers. But you’re switching to this additional business model. And was it something that you spent months planning? Like how did you approach the actual process of Oh, I went live, I have a tier. Hey, readers, come join.
[00:17:51] Michael Evans: how was that process?
[00:17:52] Aven Ellis: I did a lot of reconnaissance on Emilia’s account and other author’s accounts. And I looked at authors, not just [00:18:00] romance. I looked at all kinds of authors cuz I thought, okay, you might write science fiction, but you might have a really cool tier idea that I can morph into something that would work for my readers.
[00:18:09] Aven Ellis: I dunno if. When did I start? Gosh, you think I’d remember that, but I don’t I just know it was probably at least 30 days before. I didn’t spend a lot of time, but I studied lot tears. I took a lot of screenshots, compiled them, laid ’em out. See, okay, what are some of the things? First I did not add a high tier because I really was just trying to test it.
[00:18:28] Aven Ellis: I thought, okay, $10 is gonna be a huge ask, especially for Kindle and unlimited readers, cuz you think about that. They’re paying like what, 9 99 a. . Now I’m, that’s for them to read all kinds of authors and all kinds of books. And now I’m asking you for $10 for a exclusive book and bonus scenes. And my thoughts on a new lipstick that came out.
[00:18:48] Aven Ellis: Cause I do product reviews too. And the only reason I do product reviews is I can tie ’em into pop culture that is in my books. So I’ll do a product review too. So I’m like, I thought, I don’t know who’s gonna pay for that, but I’ll put it up there. [00:19:00] below. Behold I was shocked it, you know that? How many just skipped the first two tiers and went straight to that.
[00:19:06] Aven Ellis: And then I thought, okay. And I started getting braver, like I wanna say around July, August, I started thinking maybe I need to add the higher dollar tier, but I was still afraid. I admit it. I’m like, this is too much of an ask is a paper book back twice a year gonna be enough of a gift? . And then cuz there’s gonna be, obviously there’s a lot of months, there’s $20, there’s no book coming out.
[00:19:27] Aven Ellis: But this pays all for when the books do come and the stuff that goes inside. I’m in the mailing and all that. And yeah, that’s my second most popular tier now is the $20 a month. Wow, that’s awesome. And I launched that in December. Whoa. Oh my gosh. That’s, yeah. Yeah. I’m closing in, I think I’m 30 people on that level.
[00:19:46] Aven Ellis: Wow. Wow.
[00:19:48] Michael Evans: Yeah. Amazing. So you, for those who are looking at your subscription, which I will link it down below, we always do this. , cause it’s great for people to check out, potentially support as well. But there’s a $3, a $5, [00:20:00] a $10 and a $20 tier . So that’s pretty incredible to have 30, 30 ish percent of your audience in that $20 tier.
[00:20:08] Michael Evans: That’s, yeah. Wow. I’m impressed.
[00:20:12] Aven Ellis: Yeah, that surprised me too. Especially in this economy right now, to be honest, in this economy. For real, I thought what I anticipated going into the last half of this year in 2023, was that I would see drops down. Like I might see a $10 subscriber move to a five or move to a three, just saying, I just don’t wanna spend my discretionary income there.
[00:20:31] Aven Ellis: But actually the opposites kind of happen. A lot of 10 jumped to the. And I’m seeing five jump to the 20. It’s surprising. But I think again, if you’re, I was just gonna say, I’ve noticed that too. Isn’t that strange? Cause I it’s the opposite of what I thought. But I think if you’re providing something that makes people feel good and they’re willing to invest in the experience and obviously they’re enjoying the experience or they wouldn’t be upgrading like they think they’re definitely getting value and they want to get that extra.
[00:20:59] Aven Ellis: But yeah, my [00:21:00] $10 tier, I give you an arc of the books that come out within the year, and I had someone comment, oh this subscription alone is, the price is worth the arc. Isn’t that interesting? Oh, wow. Yeah. I thought so too.
[00:21:13] Michael Evans: Oh, no, I’m not surprised by it. And I think this is what makes pricing subscriptions unbelievably difficult because in reality, Although we’ve had, players like because Amazon’s scheme has never been to make money off books.
[00:21:27] Michael Evans: They lose money on their retail, on everyone. They lose money. 150% of their profits in 2018 came from aws, which is cloud computing. They don’t make money selling anything related books, and most of their money, even off books, will come from the advertising which author spending back. So all that said, Amazon is a very different game than we have as authors, which is we would like to make some money doing what we do.
[00:21:47] Michael Evans: The thing about it though is that anything that’s emotionally so evocative and that someone’s connected to price, any like normal way of pricing, something goes out the door. People are very irrational. Is [00:22:00] your book really worth any amount? No one goes, no one can put a price in that.
[00:22:04] Michael Evans: That’s the tough part cuz we are asked to put a price on it in order to feed ourselves. But that’s really interesting and I think when I think about things, cause I. . I always think it’s a tough balance you have to walk as an author with pricing because on one hand you need to make money, but on another hand you don’t want to make things inaccessible for potentially to support you.
[00:22:25] Michael Evans: But I think you have a really interesting strategy. One is you still have your free community that you’re spending time in that is as accessible gets, and it makes sense. . Yeah. If you want access to additional benefits and time and another experience that you’d have to pay for it. Artists don’t perform concerts for free, so I think that’s a really good strategy.
[00:22:45] Michael Evans: But I also think thinking about your $20 here, that is considering what a night out costs and considering that you are giving your readers something similar to that experience and hanging out with. That is actually unachievable. And I’m not saying [00:23:00] this is what’s happening, but I can see readers and people in general going, huh, I don’t wanna spend a hundred dollars going out to a bar or name that place that you’re going out to, to try and be with friends.
[00:23:09] Michael Evans: Or maybe for a lot of people, they live far from even a place where they could go in, meet people, they actually. Might have, whether it’s an illness or family situations in which they aren’t able to actually go out and connect with others. And you’re creating that experience for what is relatively a low amount when you think about it that way.
[00:23:29] Michael Evans: So that’s my big advice on pricing. But I look at the $20 and I think about international shipping. And I’m wondering how that’s working for you because are you shipping books internationally?
[00:23:37] Aven Ellis: Yeah. I shipped three books to Australia . I didn’t, to be honest, I didn’t think I’d had international subscribers, so I really didn’t.
[00:23:46] Aven Ellis: That’s one thing. Think about, learn from me, think about international, but the way I’m looking at it now, if I’m planning to release two books this year, so that would be two paperbacks I have to. and if someone subscribe to me all year long, paying $20 a [00:24:00] month, that washes out in my book. So I have a question about that.
[00:24:03] Aven Ellis: Do they have to be in that $20 tier for a specific amount of time before, like what if somebody joins the month that you release that book? Yeah. Do they still get Yeah. A paper back? I’m doing it that way. I know when I did my research, a lot of authors have, you have to be in this so many months.
[00:24:21] Aven Ellis: before you can qualify for that. I’m just going off Goodwill, and I wanna make a good consumer experience and sometimes you’re gonna have things like that happen. . So far it’s worked. What I did do is, because I had planned for this, the book that I released on Monday was, I initially was thinking it might come out in December and that just didn’t happen.
[00:24:37] Aven Ellis: But to make good to them, I said, Hey, I’ve recovered book one in my baseball series. I’m gonna send everybody in this level a copy. and they were like, oh wow, okay, cool. So they actually got a surprise book out of it and I had a custom mailer designed for it. I put a thank you note and I personally addressed each book.
[00:24:53] Aven Ellis: Like I didn’t just sign my name, I did a personal greeting and I did have someone to DM me say, I never thought you would [00:25:00] customize it. That was another thing if you had the time. Customization is really good cuz it makes someone feel really valued because they were actually just shocked that I wrote their name on the.
[00:25:08] Aven Ellis: Wow. There’s another pro tip if you have the time. Customization is huge. And I put a handwritten note, thank you card custom. Ella’s thank you card wrote to each person. And I said that as a thank you for joining at this level. And then I will do another shipment when my books come in about a week or two.
[00:25:24] Aven Ellis: This will be the first official, the book that released during your membership and you’re getting this
[00:25:28] Michael Evans: book. Yeah. . That’s amazing. And I have a question for just people at home listening is I hear custom mailers, custom, anything print, and I’m thinking, where are you getting that? You don’t have to share if you’re uncomfortable, but I think it could be helpful to some people just to hear where you get it from.
[00:25:43] Michael Evans: Yeah. Sticker Mule.
[00:25:44] Aven Ellis: Okay. Sticker Mule has custom mailers, poly mailers, which is what I get. First I was worried, I thought, when I realized I was having to ship to Australia, I’m like, is this gonna make it to Australia? Is this gonna come up, beat up? And no, person who posted the picture in my reader group was from Australia.[00:26:00]
[00:26:00] Aven Ellis: So they were like, oh, look at the book and everything, and the only thing they were bummed about is on the custom mail of the customs form went right over the character space. Oh they got this mailer. They’re like, oh, there’s this big customs label, slap right on top. So I thought maybe I need to make them dual-sided so that way custom will go on.
[00:26:18] Aven Ellis: You can get the poly mailers or you can get even bubble padded mailers, but the poly I found made it to Australia. So I’m good with those and they do a really nice job with them.
[00:26:26] Aven Ellis: I really like ’em. And I think readers think they’re really cool, except I do warn them. Now, the one thing I didn’t do is someone did DM me and said, I almost cut off the top of her head. Cause I didn’t realize it was a custom mailer cause they got it on the other side, which just had a mailing label on it.
[00:26:40] Aven Ellis: And she started to cut the thing open and then she happened to look and she said, I almost decapitated Hailey. That was the character that was on the cover. So I tell them now, make sure you flip it over both sides before you open it so you can see the art on it. But they like those a lot. I love that idea.
[00:26:57] Aven Ellis: Custom packaging, that’s incredible. [00:27:00] I, yeah, that, that’s so amazing. I’m now curious because we’ve had a what seems like an amazing first year-ish, started in 22. Now we’re at the beginning of 2023. What were some things that surprised you or some of the big lessons that you learned in the first nine-ish months of your subscription?
[00:27:18] Aven Ellis: Oh, it surprised me. They were on board with a chapter a month for a book that really surprised me. And I did not initially have that in my offer. that was added later because I just thought, oh, my first thought was I’ll show them some stuff that never made it, that never made it to publishing were projects.
[00:27:35] Aven Ellis: I started, cause this was a project, I thought I was gonna write two books at one time and that didn’t work out so well. And I only wrote four chapters or five chapters of this book. And they’re like you need to finish this. And then someone said, why don’t you make this Patreon exclusive? And I said, okay.
[00:27:48] Aven Ellis: As long as we all understand this is a rough draft and it will be probably a chapter maybe. A month at the most. Cool. They were excited. They wanted it. They wanted it that bad. I never thought they [00:28:00] would be okay with that. Just based on everything I had heard about what you have to produce for Patreon to keep people happy.
[00:28:04] Aven Ellis: And I was seeing a lot of people doing a chapter a week, and I’m like, oh my gosh, I can’t do that and keep up with my regular writing. But I want each thing to be equally good and equally valuable. And so that surprised me and that worked, that’s been very successful.
[00:28:17] Aven Ellis: And also just people jumping to the higher price points surprised me a lot and that people actually love the Patreon community, even though they don’t get to have the conversations, like they can post a subject over the Facebook group and have a conversation when I post something, they will talk in there and talk to each other, and several of ’em said, I love this.
[00:28:33] Aven Ellis: which that surprised me. Cause they don’t have the freedom they do like in a Facebook group, Hey, I saw this, I’m gonna post it right When they come over to Patreon, it’s of driven by me. And I’ve even thought about trying a daily conversation, Fred, or a weekly conversation thread open by me just to see what happens with it.
[00:28:49] Aven Ellis: Are they gonna talk to each other? If I open that door and say, Hey, what’s going on this week? Tell me what’s new. That’s something I wanna test in the future. But that has surprised me too.
[00:28:57] Michael Evans: That’s awesome. I also Emilia, I think you were gonna say something [00:29:00] earlier maybe do you wanna pick up on that?
[00:29:01] Michael Evans: I saw your mouth like open at one point and I was like, I think you have a thought.
[00:29:04] Emilia Rose: I maybe, I think it’s like a big oh my God, I cannot say the word. Sorry. I’m all over the place right now. . A lot of people think that you have to produce a lot of content for a subscription, but like we were talking about before, it’s just all the expectations you set.
[00:29:17] Emilia Rose: Yeah, because I do produce a lot of content on my subscription, but that’s how I write. I tend to write really fast. But the subscription I just opened like a few months ago, I’m only producing one chapter or one episode. Per month and people are joining daily. And it’s crazy. I’m just like, oh.
[00:29:34] Emilia Rose: So I don’t have to produce so much content for people to join and wanna be there. Yeah. I produce a chapter and then I produce four bonus pieces in a chapter each month and usually a bonus piece is anywhere from 1500 words to.
[00:29:48] Emilia Rose: 2,500 words. So they’re not massive bonus pieces. What I do is I usually do one a week, and that’s in addition to my other writing, so it doesn’t really interfere. That’s one thing I think a lot of people think, oh my God, this is gonna interfere with my writing [00:30:00] schedule my books. You can make it work, but just don’t over promise.
[00:30:04] Emilia Rose: And maybe my advice, we start smaller. Say I’m gonna offer once a month, or I’m gonna offer two bonus pieces, or I’m gonna offer character interviews. start smaller and then add more, and then maybe increase your tiers. That’s another way to start if you’re afraid of it.
[00:30:18] Michael Evans: I think this is really good advice, especially for people coming from the world of e retailers or Kiln Unlimited because.
[00:30:25] Michael Evans: So many of the success stories up to this point in subscriptions have been from the world of serial fiction. And yes, the king is just a bit different there. The chapters are much shorter than you would get. Kindle Unlimited, now chapters are a lot shorter, you’re getting chapters that are a lot of times a thousand words.
[00:30:39] Michael Evans: And yet authors might be releasing a chapter of that a week or send two or three a week. But it’s different cuz they’re shorter, they’re more bite. And the readers who are reading on these apps have slightly different expectations. Now, there’s always an overlap in different segments of readers, but that is something I think if you were to go to any subscription site and look at all the successful authors, you would be like, oh wow, this is, this person’s releasing a lot of [00:31:00] content.
[00:31:00] Michael Evans: But if you look at where else they’re publishing, that can tell you a lot about the best comp authors for you. And if you’re someone who’s in Kindle Unlimited, you might wanna look at someone more like even. Running a model maybe closer to what might work for your readers rather than someone who’s just on a place like Wattpad or Radish or railroad.
[00:31:18] Michael Evans: Now there’s hybrid authors. Emilia’s doing a little bit of everything. So there’s also that confusion too that it’s difficult to look at other authors and know who you should be paying attention to, but I think it’s worthwhile not just looking at the subscription page and getting intimidated, but also going to their website and checking out the rest of their business and being like, okay, where does my business fall into what they’re doing?
[00:31:38] Aven Ellis: Yeah. And I ki Sorry, go ahead. No, you go ahead. Go ahead.
[00:31:41] Emilia Rose: I was just gonna say, going off that a lot of people, I where the misconception comes in is I say Hey, I produced 10 chapters a week because that’s what I’m currently doing. , but those chapters are really short. A lot of people write chapters that are like 5,000 words and they’re like, wow, I can’t produce 50,000 words a week, but I’m [00:32:00] just doing 10,000 words a week.
[00:32:01] Emilia Rose: Cause my chapters are short. And so it would be very beneficial to not only just look at what they’re doing from the outside, but actually maybe. You don’t even have to join their subscription, but realize that they might not be writing as much or giving as much to their community as you think they are.
[00:32:19] Emilia Rose: Based on your experiences writing a chapter, your experiences running a community.
[00:32:24] Aven Ellis: You guys both brought up two things I never thought about, and those are brilliant points that need to be thought about. That’s my mind’s just going, why did I think of that when I was doing this research? I didn’t think of that at all.
[00:32:35] Aven Ellis: I just thought I can’t do three chapters a week. Can’t. So here’s what I’m gonna offer. , hopefully people want it. I think another thing you can do too is before you launch in your newsletter, people will answer questions you post in a newsletter. There might be a handful of them, but they will answer.
[00:32:52] Aven Ellis: And I will ask what, like one of ’em I asked at the for my I think it was December newsletter. I, what do you wanna see from me in [00:33:00] 2023? What kind of extra things would you like? And one thing that came up, even though I already had the Patreon, was bonus scenes. And I thought I was really more bonus scenes.
[00:33:07] Aven Ellis: I’d like to read more about these characters and I did email this person back and I did say that’s available in my Patreon community if you want that. Now, interesting enough, some of these people never subscribe to Patreon. They wanted those bonus scenes just for free. But we’re running a business and it’s not fair to my people who pay for Patreon, they’re paying for this.
[00:33:24] Aven Ellis: So that’s where that, those bonuses are going to go. What also is interesting is another thing they wanted was signed paperback books. And I did not have a paperback shop simply cuz I did not wanna have to deal with filling out the tax. I’m in Texas, you have to fill out a special tax seller thing.
[00:33:39] Aven Ellis: Collect the taxes, pay the taxes. That was something that, I wasn’t really interested in doing. But I researched some more and I just opened an Etsy shop where they collect the taxes and they pay the taxes and I pay them portion of a service fee. And now I’ve already made in two weeks, like 27 orders I’ve filled off that Etsy store.
[00:33:58] Aven Ellis: So yeah, it [00:34:00] you, that’s, I get that. If you ask, they will tell you. and it’s just a matter of saying, how can I make this work? Because I had the signed paperback thing for two years from people and the reader, when are you gonna do that? I’m like I don’t wanna do that.
[00:34:10] Aven Ellis: But then I got to thinking on it and because subscriptions would work, I think it opened my mind a little bit more to it. And then when I found a way to do it that was best for me, I went ahead and did it and it’s working. So I think of some of those things. Don’t be afraid to ask your newsletter.
[00:34:22] Aven Ellis: If you have a reader group. Ask ‘ em, put a poll up, put some ideas up. Would Get them excited about the idea of something different. And that’s, again, I know I keep saying have a Facebook reader group, but this is why you have hot audience who already has invested in you. They’ve come to your Facebook, they’ve joined your group.
[00:34:37] Aven Ellis: They’re there for a reason. Hear them. speak to them. Yeah, they will tell you what to do. And again, not all of it you will do, but those two things started stemming. And then just seeing again, subscription for authors has been huge. And again, I cannot recommend enough if you’re listening to this, you need to be in that group and you need to participate.
[00:34:57] Aven Ellis: And lurking is fine at first, but participation is [00:35:00] so much. Because that’s gets the conversations going where you learn stuff. And Michael, you and Emilia have so much wisdom to share and you’re so generous generous with sharing it. Just keep your ears open. But again, use your newsletter. Ask the question, use your reader group.
[00:35:15] Aven Ellis: Ask the questions. You will get answers, and you can work off those answers. I really believe that. I could not agree more with that. I think that what we’re seeing. You’re really what I’ll call broadly a community-based creator. . And I think that authors who are tapping into their communities, who are letting them fuel their creative work and making it more of this, it’s not necessary collaborative.
[00:35:35] Aven Ellis: Because let me tell you, your readers don’t want to write your books with you. They want you to write your books. They want you, they don’t want to do any of that. But making them feel, like you said, heard a part of something bigger is what the thousand True fans model is about. , I’m so happy that you’re expanding to things too beyond just a normal subscription payment because me and Emil are like, subscriptions are great.
[00:35:55] Aven Ellis: We are on the script subscriptions for authors, but I always tell authors too it doesn’t end there. You don’t have to just [00:36:00] be on KU and then subscriptions, you can do more than that. There’s a lot of other different models like you’re finding with signed books, like one off purchases of that.
[00:36:08] Aven Ellis: People are willing to pay a lot more than that and you can make a lot more per copy than you would selling a print on demand book on. 100%. And then part of me is kicking myself, like, why didn’t I do this sooner? ? But I just had to find the thing that worked for me and believe it or not, as soon as I opened that Etsy store and started promoting it, I had five authors DM me, how are you doing this?
[00:36:28] Aven Ellis: Why are you doing this? Wow. Do you, oh wow. How much of a color are you giving up? And I said for me it’s worth it because that’s paperwork I don’t have to deal with. It’s a bill I don’t have to deal with. And they calculate shipping. Everything is done by them. It makes it really easy for me. I just go twice a week to the post office and now that my husband’s retired, he’s going to be going to the post office to drop off my books.
[00:36:48] Aven Ellis: but this, but again, it’s listening. , and having a little bit of, I guess being af not afraid to fail. Because I could have opened this Etsy store and had no sales and it could sit there and have tumbleweeds rolling by it. But [00:37:00] it’s, that’s okay for that cuz I’m not losing monies like 20 cents to list each listing.
[00:37:05] Aven Ellis: But my goal is I always thought, like with Paton, if it doesn’t work after I thought six months, let’s see where it is. I can always shut it down, try something else, or look at it as a slow grow. But you aren’t going to get anywhere if you want to grow and you’re looking at revenue streams.
[00:37:18] Aven Ellis: And I think having different revenue streams is really important. I think I was really excited about the Patreon and where it can go. I’m excited about the Etsy store and who knows what’ll come in the future, but I think having, and that’s why I also write different types of series because I want different revenue streams.
[00:37:33] Aven Ellis: There’s gonna be people who only read my sports books, so they’re gonna get the soccer books. There’s people who just like Royals and some of them will cross over and read everything. But I also have developed, it’s kinda like legs on a table. I don’t just want the table supported by. , I want it supported by four solid lakes.
[00:37:48] Aven Ellis: So that’s what I’m looking for with each of these different streams as well.
[00:37:51] Emilia Rose: Think it’s really interesting that you bring up the slow growth because I think that’s what subscriptions are. Everyone. , I, we were, me and Michael were talking about [00:38:00] this I think probably yesterday, but everyone is so focused on getting having huge launch for their books.
[00:38:06] Emilia Rose: They think they have to go onto subscriptions and have this huge successful launch, but that’s not what it is. It’s It’s going to happen over an extended period of time and it’s gonna be very slow. But once you get to that point, like it could take off like, and grow really fast, or you could just continue to grow slowly and you’re just.
[00:38:25] Emilia Rose: There’s no reason to especially if you’re doing like a early access model and you’re already writing those books, or if you’re already writing those bonuses anyway, there’s no reason to just shut it down after one month because you only like a handful of people.
[00:38:37] Aven Ellis: No, and that’s exactly right.
[00:38:38] Aven Ellis: Like I went into it going, okay, if this works, it works. And I had no expectation that I was gonna have a hundred subscribers within three months. No, I didn’t have that at all. Every time I got one, I was excited and I celebrated that. Oh look, I got a, Ooh, that one got a $5 one.
[00:38:51] Aven Ellis: This is so exciting. Yeah, celebrate every little win. And I think that kind of positive energy also goes to what you do. . I think, [00:39:00] readers, if you’re excited, they get excited. If you’re doubting it and anxious about. I don’t know. I don’t see how that sets you up for success, but I also have a business mind.
[00:39:08] Aven Ellis: I also knew, okay, if this just doesn’t work though, I’m not afraid to shut something down. I started once. This is a story I tell all the time. I have one standalone book. Only one. Everything else is serious, but there’s only one, cuz it did not perform the way I wanted it to. And it’s called Green Tea Latte to Go.
[00:39:24] Aven Ellis: And it was a super cute book and it even had mini pig pets. I love that book. And rdo who love it, but people just didn’t find it. It just didn’t make the big connection. And that was initially supposed to launch a new series for me and I said, no. And now some people would say that was a mistake, but I should have done three books and I should have seen if it grew.
[00:39:40] Aven Ellis: But I just thought, this doesn’t compare to my other book numbers and I’m just gonna change it. I took the series title off of it and I just left it as a standalone book. And so I’m not afraid to make a hard business decision. And so that’s how I of went into Page. If it doesn’t work after let’s say six months, my numbers were abysmal and I was losing money.
[00:39:57] Aven Ellis: Okay? That’s the other thing. Are you losing money? Are you, am I buying all [00:40:00] these things? And at that point, I wasn’t, cause I didn’t have the top. So that’s another thing if you, if maybe you go into it thinking I’m gonna offer things, but not offer any kind of physical product. You don’t have to, I didn’t offer that until December, so I wasn’t losing money.
[00:40:13] Aven Ellis: It was just, I was putting up the bonuses and that was it. And so you.
[00:40:18] Michael Evans: I was gonna say, what I recommend authors to think about those when you do bonus scenes, thinking about how much hours am I putting into my subscription in a month? It might be a few hours, might be more than that.
[00:40:29] Michael Evans: And thinking about how much would excite you to get paid per hour. Do you wanna get paid a dollar per hour priority? Like maybe that’s okay in the beginning. But it’s nice to think about those things too, because if you’re not offering physical goods, I still do see people. I hear the worry of someone going, I’m spending 10 hours making my subscription, and there’s one reader inside I understand how that could be a little bit deflating.
[00:40:49] Michael Evans: So we have, and I’ll link it in the description, something called the subscription pricing calculator that we just came out with this actually. So I was like, wait, where’s this ? [00:41:00] I thought this is the first pod. By the time this podcast is live, it’ll be live, but what is you’ll enter in the spread.
[00:41:07] Michael Evans: The pricing of your tiers, the expenses you have, and part of those expenses are the physical labor hours you put into it. Because I believe that you are, your time is worth something as an author. And then in the end you can actually figure out how much money am I making per tier and how much money I’m making overall with my subscription based on how many subscribers are inside it.
[00:41:26] Michael Evans: So you could do that and be like, boom, with all this work and only five subscribers, this might not. worth it adding at this point, but then at a different point when you have more subscribers, it might be worth it. So we did design that. It is coming out. It is kinda, that’s genius. But it’s definitely helpful.
[00:41:43] Michael Evans: I think too, you also, you have to look at it this way, even if your subscription model doesn’t take off right away, subscriptions are where we’re going. Go through your monthly bill if you don’t believe me. And tell me how many subscription services you are signed up for. I have everything [00:42:00] from, because I write Premier League and I’m launching that series.
[00:42:02] Michael Evans: I’ve already written some of the characters, but I’m launching that series. I watch Premier League, it’s called Football over in Europe, but soccer. All the time, right? I subscribe to three different sports networks just for soccer. Okay? So think about that. That’s three subscriptions just for soccer.
[00:42:18] Michael Evans: Then I also get like a international yums box cuz I’m a foodie and I like foreign. Like this month it was Austria and all kinds of food from Austria. Cool. That’s another subscription, right? You start going through it. This is what people. and yeah, this is where people are going and who knows what the future holds as far as like Amazon or anything like that, but this is ours, and I think that’s where it’s going, and I think it’s important to start that now.
[00:42:42] Michael Evans: If you can, it’s the rise of the experience economy, which is a very broad and one of those big terms. But I will say that software as a service is massive. It makes up a percentage of the global economy at this point. Content as a service is exactly what I would say. Something like Amazon Kindle Unlimited Netflix is , part of your [00:43:00] subscription as an author is content as a service, but it’s also community as a service.
[00:43:03] Michael Evans: Yes, it’s status as a service and there’s much more part of that, but it is a service again, that you’re offering your readers that they can access on a recurring basis. And there is a degree of ownership, a part of that if you’re setting up physical goods and things of that sort. But yeah, people really want experiences.
[00:43:18] Michael Evans: people are willing to pay for it. And the big thing that I like to tell authors and why this is the best time full stop to be an author, even with conversations around AI and all these uncertainties, back 30 years ago, publishers would only ever publish unless you were AA list one of your books and it would be priced anywhere around like maybe.
[00:43:37] Michael Evans: Inflation adjusted. We’ll just say $1,500 is the average price pay. So 30 years ago, we’ll just pretend, but you would get today’s equivalent of maybe a dollar, $2, $3 per sale, and that’s it per year. So if you had one reader, all you could make off of them in a year was two or $3, which is fine, but that meant that you had to have 10,000 readers to even approach.
[00:43:56] Michael Evans: Making a livable wage, and in reality, you [00:44:00] had to have tens of thousands of readers. That is very hard. Very few books, if you look at a graph, sell over 10,000 books in the United States. However, between one and 10,000 copies, 70,000 books each year sell between that amount, between one and 10,000, and nevermind all the books that sell between 101,000.
[00:44:18] Michael Evans: That’s hundreds of thousands. Those are each one readers, those are buying those books. So what if you were able to increase the lifetime value of your readers instead of now in the indie world, we realize, huh, we don’t have to write one book a year. We can publish, five, 10 books a year and make the same amount.
[00:44:34] Michael Evans: But there’s a limit to that, right? We can’t make. 20 books a year or 30 books a year regularly, which means that our customer lifetime value of the course of a year is gonna cap at $30 max. Which is good, but that still means you need to make a living thousand plus ish readers, which there are authors who hit that, but now what if you are able to.
[00:44:56] Michael Evans: Yeah, and this is what the super fan model is, that customer lifetime value up to a [00:45:00] hundred dollars, and the true fan model on the internet says that a thousand people paying you a hundred dollars a year can make you a living. That’s what the creator economy’s built on. That’s what this is all about.
[00:45:09] Michael Evans: Trying to say, how can you. Provide more services to your core readers so that your average reader doesn’t pay you $2 that you’re net taking home, but closer to a hundred dollars. That makes this whole thing way easier. You don’t have to compete with authors for bestseller list or battle it out with the one next to you for a ranking, but instead can work together to create better relationships to readers.
[00:45:27] Aven Ellis: Sounds way too fun to me that’s a be you put that so beautifully. And it’s so true because. . The thing about community is what people are missing and what people are looking for. And think about brands, and this is one thing I study, not just books, but brands that really connect with people that you wouldn’t expect.
[00:45:43] Aven Ellis: How many times have you driven and have you seen that people put that Yeti from the, the cups, the coolers that bumper sticker on the back of their. Think about that. What makes you so loyal to a brand that you’re gonna put a sticker on the back of your car for your thermal mug community?
[00:45:58] Aven Ellis: They created a [00:46:00] good community that people wanted to belong to and people wanted to be a part of. And there’s a lot of different brands that create that. Lulu Levin has done a really good job of that. So if you think like that, what bonds people, what makes them wanna rally around this thing? What makes ’em so excited about a thermal cup?
[00:46:14] Aven Ellis: That’s the one that blew my mind. They’re so excited about their cooler. They put a bumper sticker on their car about a cooler.
[00:46:22] Michael Evans: The reverse happens now when we get to realize as creators that we have an easier job than any of these big brands because we create things that our fans already geek outta.
[00:46:31] Michael Evans: Yes. And how software and technology works. Now we can create all the things those other companies do and build the brands ourselves. That’s like where we’re going. And that is such a big trend, everyone that like we’re not ready for the world that will exist 10 years from now. And it’s gonna have so much more opportunity for creative people who ultimately nurture the community that you’re talking about even because now you can sell the water cooler, you can sell the bumper sticker, you can sell anything and people will want it.
[00:46:57] Michael Evans: And this sounds really futuristic, but it really isn’t. [00:47:00] 3D printers are gonna be a technology platform that goes live 10, 15 years from now. And if you’re thinking about on that time scale building your. , wow. Your goods are gonna become way more accessible to a lot more people and in a world of 3D printers , when material is commoditized.
[00:47:15] Michael Evans: just like content is commoditized now. What matters is communing and connection.
[00:47:19] Michael Evans: Yeah. And and building a brand that people know exactly what they’re getting when they come to you. I think that’s been huge and like I told you, like I’ve known for put dropping makeup, but fashion in my books.
[00:47:28] Michael Evans: Here’s another one. Okay. I got to a pattern where I would pick a perfume for heroin. Each book. and I would, I did a lot of research into fragrance notes and what matched, and I used a real brand of perfume. And Joe Malone, cause that’s a personal favorite of mine, has popped up several times. Readers now go post, when they bought Joe Malone, I splurge and got my first Joe Malone because they have tied into this community and they know that’s part of the brand and they shared their pictures because they’re excited about it.
[00:47:53] Michael Evans: about being a part of that. And that’s also part of my brand. They know when they read my book, they’re gonna get a fragrance drop and they wanna know what perfume is going with this [00:48:00] character? What journey is this character doing? And I think if you tie those things together, the community and the branding and creating other platforms in the subscription model, again, is so huge that, cause that’s where we’re going.
[00:48:11] Michael Evans: I, I think you can really set yourself up for some good success.
[00:48:15] Emilia Rose: I have a question. Did you make a post about that in a Facebook? Yeah. Okay. Cause I okay, so I think you inspired me to . So I’m actually weaving in a lipstick line into my mafia series, and I’m going to launch it as lipstick line in real life.
[00:48:34] Emilia Rose: And I am pretty sure your post inspired me to God. I need to get samples of this, I will pimp it. I’m so in the makeup. I am. Yeah. That’s so cool. Because yeah, , that’s what I do. There’s certain things I put in every book. You’re always gonna get what fragrance the heroin is wearing.
[00:48:51] Emilia Rose: She’s always got a signature lipstick and I can maybe use one of . And there’s fashion and some people don’t like that, but I’m not writing for them, yeah. And it’s funny, It’s, [00:49:00] but those are the things, and people come and talk about those things. In my book, they talk about the pop culture references in my book.
[00:49:05] Emilia Rose: Yes. Can that date your book? Of course it does. Like five years from now, someone may be looking at it going, that’s not even a thing anymore. But that’s what I write. That’s who I am. You’re gonna have to roll with it , because that’s what I, but again, it helps bonding people together. when they talk about, Ooh, this character loved avocado toast.
[00:49:23] Emilia Rose: I hate that. They’ll actually go in and post pictures of things they find on Instagram. Liz would love this. And sometimes I’ll be honest, sometimes I’ll post something and I go, what book was that? ? They literally remembered every one of these little slips that I put in. And those are the things that make people talk and help create that community.
[00:49:40] Michael Evans: I want to share something now cause I’m like, I’m so excited about this. you all talk about and I wanna put a call to action at the. For anyone listening, which is that there’s this is a big example that’s more pop culture oriented, but this applies to smaller scales. Logan Paul and Ksi two definitely controversial creators, but they came together and started this drink brand that if you’re above the age [00:50:00] of 13 and under the age of 25 and a guy you definitely know about and probably bought it cuz they have that audience and it’s a competitor to Gatorade.
[00:50:07] Michael Evans: And their first year they generated $200 million in sales. Their first year. Wow. My, they’re already a means global drink brand because of the distribution they had and trust in their audience. It’s selling out nationwide in stores. Likewise milk which is like a Disney, I call it the Disney for partying.
[00:50:24] Michael Evans: So if you are also a college age male milk Boys they’re like the kind of internet creator that Justin Bieber fanboys over. There’s a story about that one. But regardless, they have a drink brand called Happy. and it is, I see the trucks everywhere, nationwide, distributed and a massive business.
[00:50:41] Michael Evans: And these are people who have digital native brands. Now think about the consumer economy. I’ve already told this to, Emilia may share this in the podcast, but who reads romance typically I don’t wanna generalize, but they’re mostly women. , who identify women. And 70% of the consumer economy is driven by women.
[00:50:57] Michael Evans: Wow. Okay, so we’re seeing two brands made for [00:51:00] like young dudes absolutely crushing it. What would happen if, like you were saying, you already want to put Emilia’s lipstick brand in your book? No. What would happen if 50 romance creators got together partnered with someone who could operate the brand and said, Hey, we’re gonna build the next big lipstick company.
[00:51:15] Michael Evans: We’re gonna build the next big fashion company. It would work. And if anyone is interested in that, just reach out to me, Emilia. Cause this is exactly the kind of stuff we work on and this is where it’s going. And I think. These authors, again, working together, not competing, can do tremendous things that can change our economy, not just our reader’s.
[00:51:34] Michael Evans: Lives can change how our world looks and works.
[00:51:37] Aven Ellis: And see, I never ever would’ve thought what Emilia did with the lipstick, even though I have a natural audience for it. and what you’re talking about with the drinks. So this is really exciting. I’m so exci I could, Emilia, I’ll have to get offline with you and DM you because I wanna hear all Oh yeah.
[00:51:51] Aven Ellis: About this lipstick. I’m like, look, I’m putting my lipstick on for you guys today. I’m excited about this, but Yeah, because I’m like an ambassador for Joe Malone, but [00:52:00] an unpaid one. . ,
[00:52:00] Michael Evans: where do creators make most of their money? This is what authors haven’t caught onto yet, which we’re going to.
[00:52:06] Michael Evans: 70% of the income for top YouTubers now comes from brands who are paying them. This is a massive industry that is 15 billion plus in the United States. The brands paying creators directly, some their products, what we call influencers. Typically we of change the word to creators, and exams gets a bad rep.
[00:52:21] Michael Evans: But in reality, if you do it tastefully, like integrating it into a book, these are sorts of things. , if you’re able to drive conversions to a brand that has a long customer lifetime value of any sort of product, that’s valuable. So again, if you work for a brand, if you work or know someone who works for a company in consumer packaged goods, perfume clothing, anything of a sort that a reader might be interested in buying, also reach out to us because I think we need to start this conversation.
[00:52:46] Michael Evans: As authors, we have tough lives. Helping out our readers writing books, but this change we need to try and actually jump on because authors are every day missing out on more opportunities to [00:53:00] create better experiences for the readers and make more money by literally just making their story worlds closer to the worlds that already exist in our real life.
[00:53:08] Michael Evans: Merging them together, and this is why our motto is Story Colors of the World. I love it. Thanks . It’s gonna be fun. I’m so excited. This has been an amazing podcast and I have one final question for you. Sure. Because you’ve been amazing. My final question is what, if you have any goals, what you’re looking to for 2023 in your subscription?
[00:53:28] Michael Evans: It seems like 2022 went really well, maybe surpassed your expectations. Yeah. What are you maybe thinking about for 2023? ,
[00:53:36] Aven Ellis: You think I would have an answer for this? I really just am looking at steady. I’m not looking to expand the tiers at this point cuz I’ve really got my hands full shipping out all these paper masks as its
[00:53:47] Aven Ellis: I haven’t done any research as to where I wanna grow, I think cuz I didn’t expect it to be so successful to be honest. So that’s something I still need to play with, but it’s just steady growth right now and maybe another tier. But I’d have to look into [00:54:00] what I could offer and what that could be.
[00:54:01] Aven Ellis: So that’s a very disappointing answer considering the rest of the conversation, but that’s the best I go for you about that one. .
[00:54:08] Michael Evans: No, that’s, I think also as well, a good reminder to everyone, that you don’t always have to constantly be planning, you don’t have to constantly be setting these expectations and that just like you, even sometimes you have to be okay to fail but it’s easier to fail and be okay with that. Meanwhile, you’ve had tremendous success, but to be okay with that feeling to start to just start to begin with. . It’s helpful to not put six months of planning and hundreds of hours into one thing. Yeah, I didn’t Makes it a lot. That makes it a lot harder like to fail.
[00:54:35] Michael Evans: You’re like, this needs to succeed. Try and make it so that your experiments don’t. Need to succeed that you can keep trying new things.
[00:54:43] Aven Ellis: Yeah, I completely agree. And that’s what I would end on. It’s not that I’ve had plenty of failures. I’ve pulled a plug on a series and , this just went, Nope, not happening.
[00:54:50] Aven Ellis: So it’s not like I haven’t had that, so don’t think I just did this. And I’m successful at everything I do. It took me a long, like I told you, I’ve been. for seven, eight. I’ve been writing my whole since I could [00:55:00] write, but I worked a day job up until two years ago. And even though I was having success, I didn’t feel comfortable enough leaving that day job.
[00:55:08] Aven Ellis: And it was just till the past two years, I made the decision. that I’m losing money having this day job. And so it didn’t come overnight at all. I worked, I wrote, and I still do it. Part of my day job leftover was I would write in the school parking lot, waiting to pick up my daughter every day and get, I’d leave the office, bring the laptop, open it up, and pull the car seat all the way back and make that my office.
[00:55:28] Aven Ellis: And I would write until she came. And then I would write on the weekends but it’s a habit. I still keep, I will pick her up today. I leave in the afternoon. I still bring the laptop, and I still work in the parking lot. It’s just something that’s built into me. And so don’t think it has to be an overnight success.
[00:55:43] Aven Ellis: Don’t think it has to all happen even in a year or two. As long as you aren’t taking a financial hit from it. Keep at it. Keep playing with it. Don’t be afraid of it. And just start.
[00:55:54] Michael Evans: Just start. That’s amazing and a great way to end this podcast [00:56:00] Aven. Thank you so much for being here with us.
[00:56:01] Michael Evans: I had a ton of fun. You are an inspiration. And for anyone who hasn’t checked out her subscription, go check it out in links below. And for anyone who isn’t part of the Facebook group Aven’s in there too. And , we’re all here ready to help you and learn from each other because I like to say together we are boundless.
[00:56:16] Michael Evans: But I’ll end this off by saying our motto, which is Storytellers with the World, thank everyone for.
[00:56:21] Michael Evans: I hope you all enjoyed this podcast. I know how I had an amazing time Aven is wonderful and just beyond inspires me. We’ve been working for now like a year on this podcast and the Facebook group, which is almost weird to say, but we technically started, I think the Facebook group about a year from when this was released in past, and me and Emilia did this to try and help authors.
[00:56:48] Michael Evans: I think we’ve helped some people, but to just see that someone got an inkling of inspiration, an inkling of goodness in their life that they’ve now brought to their readers and their own family and their own business [00:57:00] is incredible, and it definitely has me fired up to want to give that same joy and opportunity to more readers and more authors.
[00:57:08] Michael Evans: So I just gotta say thank you. Thank you Aven. Thank you everyone for listening. Thank you everyone for your support. It’s been such an amazing journey from this community to start at zero, just me and Emilia, to now be basically 1500 of us and almost 500 of you listen every week to this podcast. I don’t even know how to express that gratitude, and I just hope we can keep making these podcasts better.
[00:57:32] Michael Evans: We’ve actually brought in an editor who will be editing this right now. Her name’s Renata, and they’re amazing. and we’re hoping that we can just continue making more awesome content and building a more enriching community for all of you. Because just like you want to create a membership for your readers, we want to be a membership for you as an author, where the price you pay is your passion.
[00:57:55] Michael Evans: And I know if you’re listening, especially if you’re listening to this point in the podcast, you have passion. And [00:58:00] one last thing I’ll mention is, Ream, which is a subscription platform by fiction authors, four fiction authors, something me and Emilia have been working on for about a year now or two, even a little over a year.
[00:58:09] Michael Evans: We’ve been working with her husband, Sean Pat. Note, he’s built Ream he’s a software engineer behind it, and it’s going live to the public on May 7th, which is really exciting. And we’ll have some more interesting things to announce in between now and then. But for you, if you wanna get early access to Ream and be one of the first authors on the platform,
[00:58:27] Michael Evans: Then you should join our wait list, which is in the description. Just have to click in, send your email, and we’ll give you your invite before most of the world will ever get to see it. Ream has been going great so far and our early days, and we’re just, it’s my dream to be able to do this for you all as authors, and I’m energized every time I chat with y’all, every time I see y’all, and I couldn’t be.
[00:58:49] Michael Evans: Grateful for that. So I hope you all have an amazing rest of your day. So I get a little snappy in the end, like I’m an emotional guy, as fired up as I get. I really deeply feel things and I just hope you all have an amazing rest of your day. I can’t [00:59:00] wait for what’s to come. I’m optimistic about the future in publishing.
[00:59:03] Michael Evans: And more than that, I’m optimistic about what happens when we bring a group of people together and focus on one thing, which is providing more interesting experiences to our readers and bringing more connection into the stories, into the communities we create. So have an amazing rest of your day, everyone.
[00:59:18] Michael Evans: Happy writing. And don’t forget storytellers Rule the World.