Posted on September 18, 2023
Today we sit down with Willow Winters, romance author extraordinaire, TikTok sensation, and titan in the subscription and book box space. Yes, we used a lot of big adjectives… that’s cause Willow is amazing, and we learn everything from her mindset to marketing tips to the BTS of running a book box so popular it needs its own warehouse. This one is a real treat.
Willow’s Links:
Willow’s website: https://willowwinterswrites.com/
Willow’s book boxes: https://www.willowwinterswrites.com/book-box-subscriptions/
Willow’s subscription: https://www.patreon.com/WillowWintersAuthor
#52 Episode Outline:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:02:43 Willow’s Subscription
00:05:08 Mastering the Author Ecosystem: Navigating Kickstarters, Patreon, and Direct Stores
00:07:00 Willow’s Approach to Elevating Accessibility
00:12:11 From Zero to 500K: The TikTok Journey
00:14:26 Empowering Storytellers: TikTok Tips for Aspiring Authors
00:18:05 Nurturing a Thriving Readership: Scaling Your Author Community
00:23:52 Diverse Creative Avenues: Exploring OnlyFans and Web Comics
00:33:38 Cracking the Mystery Box Code: Viral TikTok and Subscription Box Retention
00:37:32 Balancing Growth and Sustainability: Navigating Explosive Success in the Author World
00:41:02 Authorship and Entrepreneurship in the World of Willow Winters
00:44:26 Connect with Willow Winters: Where to Find Her
00:46:20 Conclusion
#52 Transcript
[00:00:00]
Michael Evans: This is how Willow Winters built a book box empire. And, no, that word is the only accurate word to describe just the magnitude of what she and her team have accomplished. Hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok. So many book boxes sold that she had to stop selling them. She’s going to open back up, but only when…
And probably by the time this podcast goes live, the warehouse will already be up. She has her own warehouse with her team working in it to fulfill the number of book box orders they’re getting because if she didn’t have the warehouse, it was going to basically take over her and her team’s homes. Incredible stuff.
People are loving these book boxes and people are loving her books. She has a subscription with well over 500 members, paid members at the time of this recording. We’re there for… Early access bonus scenes some [00:01:00] art that they’re getting. It’s just incredible. She’s built a true subscription empire and Willow Winthers is an incredibly well selling scene romance author who just has an incredible mindset, who has so much incredible insights for us and really shows us the inside of how she’s been able to grow, what she’s been doing, how she’s been able to scale.
Her subscription, and on top of it all, is just a really amazing person. I’m so excited for this episode. So excited for this episode. Willow has one of the most impressive subscriptions, some of the best branding, and some of the best marketing out there. So we’re going to learn a lot from her. But, before we get into it, I just want to mention that if you haven’t yet checked out Reen, Reena’s subscription platform, by fiction authors, for fiction authors, me and Amelia, along with Sean Patnoe, created it.
to be tailor made to help save you time as an author, to help bring your community of readers closer together, and to help you make more money from subscriptions. So if you want to check out Ream, I’d love to see you there. We already have a ton of authors succeeding on the platform. In fact, over 2, 000 are now on Ream.
You can check out the link in the description below. Otherwise, we’re going to get started on this episode with Willow. Ah, it’s going to be so much fun.
[00:02:00]
Michael Evans: Everyone, we have Willow Winters with us today, an icon in publishing.
Willow Winters: I swear. You are too sweet. Thank you for having me.
Michael Evans: Yes. It’s so great to have you here. You are doing so many really cool things, but I want to start with the Titleist podcast subscriptions for authors, a place and a platform. A lot of us have our descriptions on his Patreon and you have a Patreon.
So I want to start by asking you about that. Cause I know you have like by looking at your Patreon, first of all, it’s an awesome Patreon. It’s very successful, but you also seem to have two different levels of benefits, a lot of digital stuff they can get. And then of course the physical books that they’re getting to the higher tier.
So maybe walk me through before even what your subscription is. When and why
you
Willow Winters: started it. Absolutely. I knew that I wanted to get on to Patreon just in general, because I wanted a platform for readers to purchase my not really purchasing my books. They just get my books, my audio books, my eBooks.
and it’s something that I can be in control of, and it’s not something that they’re going to get, if Amazon decides to change an [00:03:00] algorithm, like Patreon itself gave me more control in that aspect. And I’m very, I keep thinking the word transparent. That’s not the word that I want to use. I’m very available in terms of my e books, in terms of my paperbacks.
I have a shop 100 percent of the time. I have my e books on digital libraries. I really like to make myself accessible to readers. So I knew that I wanted to be on Patreon. It would help me and it would provide that aspect for them. My books though, like physical copies, they can get them at any point, anywhere.
The only books that they can’t, it’s the decadent collector’s editions, which are massive. They take a lot of time to do. So those are Kickstarter only. So I sat there thinking, these readers really care. They really care. They’re talking to me constantly. I was actually surprised how many messages that I get on there and how many comments, because the follower count on Patreon is much smaller compared to a half a million on TikTok and a hundred thousand on Instagram.
Like my Patreon’s not that big. I was just thinking one night and I always like to create things that I want. And I [00:04:00] figure like a lot of my audience is just like me. So if I like it, they’ll probably like it. And I was staring at my discrete series and I was so mad that the edges were just plain.
And I asked my husband, I said, how hard would it be? And he was like for one, it’d be easy. And I was like, great let’s do it and see if anybody wants one. And that’s how. That kind of manifested itself into being what it is now. And we’re only, I think, seven books in now. And it’s already looking so pretty.
And yeah, it’s one a month. We’re doing it little by little. But it’s so pretty. I love it.
Michael Evans: Oh that’s so smart. I love it. And you mentioned actually first of all, I love how you’re like just casual, like 500, 000 on, on, on TikTok, which I love your TikTok. And we’re definitely going to talk a bit about that.
But I am curious about. You have Kickstarters, which you’ve now had four very successful funded campaigns there. You also have your direct stores. We’re gonna talk about your book boxes and how they’ve expanded into something really awesome. But you have your direct store too, and then you have your Patreon.
And they’re all doing really well at a level that a lot of authors would be like, wow. But you have them all serving [00:05:00] separate or at least different area. How do you manage that all like where does the Kickstarter sit in your author ecosystem versus the patreon and versus your direct store how does it
Willow Winters: all work together?
So I see Patreon and Kickstarter almost as luxury items as a reader years ago before I started writing I would have loved to hit like on a post and that would be all that I could do they’re definitely They’re not the run of the mill. They take a lot of time. My husband does the edges of the ones for the Patreon himself.
So a lot of love goes into these. Yeah. And the edges on the Kickstarter ones are hand sprayed. These are, yeah, these are really, they’re precious little babies that I wanted to be able to offer because it’s something that I wanted, even though I know, like it’s. It’s different, right? I want my books to be available for everybody and to be loved by everybody.
But the price points are crazy. So when I did my first Kickstarter, I didn’t even know if anybody would want them, which is why I did it on a Kickstarter. I was like, I need to know that the demand is at least there because there are 110 a piece. I Struggle [00:06:00] myself to, because I have three children I try to save resources for investments.
So with a personal ooh la item, I had no idea whether or not anybody would even want it. So it sits, those two sort of sit on my, these are for my special days. These are for, treating myself. These are very much luxury. And then I break everything else down all the way to the.
eBooks need to be on digital libraries for the people who can’t even afford like a subscription for reading platforms like Kobo Plus or Kindle Unlimited. I need to have different pieces of the market fit differently and they’re different audiences and sometimes it’s a special moment type for the same audience and sometimes it’s not.
But I want to be pretty much everywhere. And I think I’ve got a lot of it covered at this point.
Michael Evans: I think you are, I think you do have it covered. Not only are you wide, you also sell direct on your site, Kickstarter, Patreon. I think you’re doing a very good job, one thing not to totally go on a tangent, but you were talking about accessibility and I saw something that you’re doing that’s just, I love it, which is the live a thousand lives [00:07:00] project.
Yes.
Willow Winters: Very unique. as the shop expands these direct sales and I’m bringing on more people, I want to get to a point where I can have a full time person just dedicated to this. It’s a nonprofit charity.
We give audio devices to nursing homes and hospitals and retirement facilities for people who are low to no mobility. So that they can at least listen. Yeah. And they’re blue devices. They have the doing oh my God, public works. So Alice in Wonderland Moby Dick, things of that nature.
And they’ve been used in some of the facilities to help with Alzheimer’s and to do some kind of memory like therapy type, but also Just enjoying books and listening to that cadence of somebody speaking to you. It’s so healthy in comparison to like watching tv. Even though I love watching tv and all that but we myself and then My shop manager, Lauren, we were thinking about this during COVID, her father just fell, but he was elderly, he fell, hit his head, had a brain bleed and within a few months, unfortunately, we weren’t able to create Live a Thousand Lives or even get a device in hand with all of it but his just going through what I went through with my grandfather [00:08:00] and seeing and who had ALS and seeing that kind of, Decline and the difficulty of not knowing what to do and wondering if you’re doing enough.
Because books are like people tasks, these parasocial relationships. In his last days, she was struggling because she wanted to be there all the time. And it’s if he had audio books, because he wanted to read, but he couldn’t even work an iPad anymore. So that’s how it came to be on a very personal level.
And I’m looking forward to doing more though. I really want to grow it and be worldwide and Get even just a little bit of a push to maybe ignite some kind of standard health care practice to have audio books there. And I would also love to do it for pediatrics. Because I think that would be very helpful there as well.
Michael Evans: That is such a cool project. And up to this point, you’ve been able to have anthologies that you’ve done. Yes, they’re fun. The proceeds
Willow Winters: fund. Exactly. And I’m actually getting ready by the time. I’m not sure when this airs, but I’m going to get, I’m doing an anthology. I’m sending out the email actually this week, but it’s for Maui.
Cause I do love doing [00:09:00] charity collections and it’s been the last. Two years since my son has been born have exploded for me in so many ways. So I haven’t been able to dedicate as much, but I want a full time person whose only job it is to do these charity anthologies, not just for live a thousand lives, but also for things like disasters, like what’s going on in Maui right now.
Charity is a passion. It’s really easy to write a check, which I do consistently, but it’s a lot of community driven effort to do the anthologies and to spread that awareness and to keep that positivity and community going. So I just need to do more of that. It fuels my soul.
Michael Evans: Yeah. You already you’re already doing so much of it, which is so cool.
And I love that like you’ve taken this concept of Giving your readers access to different kinds of experiences. And you’re extending that philosophy beyond your own readership. And two actually like really interesting ways. One so you have your own books and libraries you have, then you’re all these different price points for different levels of experiences that readers can get with you, but you also have expanded beyond just your own intellectual property, because you have, for people who.
Really [00:10:00] need to have a more accessible experience through audio. You have the live a thousand lives project, but then you also have your book boxes, which you’re focused on. that’s much more of a premium experience or actually you have multiple tiers, but it can be a very premium
Willow Winters: experience. Yes. so the one thing about.
These boxes is that they grew to life on tick tock as did my discrete series. And on tick tock, you hit this very large audience, whereas on Facebook and Instagram, it’s what you’re cultivating. It grows much slower. They’re very tight communities. Whereas on tick tock, if you put in the wrong hashtag, your audience could be somebody you never wanted them to see, let alone just reaching like a broader audience who might be curious.
So on this platform, I discovered, the need for discrete covers because so many people are curious and either their culture, their environment, or their ability, or even just their aesthetic, they’re, they just didn’t like the typical romance books. So I had 50 books at the time, I have 60 now, they all have these discrete books and I was doing these boxes, these mysteries, and I thought, I should add in that option.
I should be like do you want [00:11:00] discreet or do you want traditional? And then it was like, people want to try it out, but they also really like being a part of a community, like feeling like they’re a part of a community. There are Harry Potter fans who don’t even read the books. But they love the environment of being this wizard and being included in this,
it’s a movement of magic even though I have my own opinions on the author herself. But just throwing that out there to make that very clear but it’s about the community and being a part of it. So I was like, let me include some. Some items where, you know, even if you haven’t read a book in 10 years, you still want to be a book lover.
You want to be a part of this and then maybe you’ll try out the books. So I tried to make it so that my own readers would love and would appreciate what’s in it. But somebody who has literally never even read a romance book. They might want to get this box because it’s a surprise. People like surprises.
It’ll, it opens up an invitation of am I going to enjoy this? If not, I did get a cool mug,
Michael Evans: yeah. No, that’s, it’s it’s such an interesting idea and before we get into like the [00:12:00] growth of your book box and where that’s gone because it’s really interesting. I, TikTok, 500, 000 followers. You don’t just wake up with that. Talk to me about that journey because I know you’ve had multiple very viral videos, but yeah.
Willow Winters: So I actually prefer TikTok for my viral videos compared to Instagram or YouTube. People are like really mad on YouTube with some of mine. Like I had, I’d make a joke on TikTok, people get the joke, right? And it tends to stay on the right algorithm on YouTube. Not so much. Like I had a book that accidentally had the Bible printed in it and it was a BDSM sex club auction book.
That’s funny. There were a lot of very angry men at me on YouTube. Cause it went viral everywhere. But yeah, I have a lot of friends and years ago I told them to get onto Tik TOK. I was like, there’s something here. My niece got me on it. She was. 13 at the time. And I was like, this is silly.
And then I discovered book talk. And at the time, smut talk didn’t really exist yet. It was a lot of fantasy readers. And I had all he’ll ever be, which [00:13:00] has a rose on the cover, beauty and the beast inspired. And I was like, I could just show off my book, and as book talk and smut talk evolved, I just made sure, and this is what I tell authors all the time, scream out as much as you can be as loud as you can.
All right, is everybody going to like it? No, but how are people going to find you if you’re quiet? So I embrace exactly what I am, what I want, what I have. I celebrate it to its fullest. I’m not a make yourself small kind of person. I’m like, be who you are. You’re going to find your people. And the only way to find them is to be loud.
So I have a lot of fun with TikTok. I try to just be myself and be really transparent. And I do think that like my magic is in my writing and that’s how I’m going to make a difference. In the world is by writing these books and by getting them into as many people’s hands as possible, even though it might not be for everybody, but as long as I can remove as many barriers as possible and reach as many people as possible.
I feel like I’m doing what I’m here on earth to do. Basically,
Michael Evans: Love your purpose is a lot of that. I really resonate [00:14:00] with and that’s I think why in our community. Be. Have the saying, Storytellers of the World, because you have the power to totally change the world with your stories, but I am curious.
So through your learnings on TikTok, posting now hundreds of videos, what would be some of the takeaways you’ve learned about creating a great TikTok, especially telling an author who’s maybe just looking to get started on TikTok now, first of all, I’ll say it’s not too late to get started on TikTok.
Never. Yeah. Yeah. So how would you get started though?
Willow Winters: Enjoy it. Number one, you’ve got at the time when I first started and I tried to get authors on, they said they were annoyed by it that they didn’t get it and I understand it was a new platform and when Instagram came out, I thought it was for taking pictures of food, right?
And then we figure out Instagram, we get books to gram and it was wonderful. And I told them, just find find what you like about it. There are authors who do dances and put the little bits of their book at the top of the screen and captions. But they enjoy. Doing the dances.
There are authors who like the audios. So they just do funny little audios and match it up to their books. And they figure [00:15:00] out a way to use what they like on the platform in order to market. I. Love marketing. I think that is my, that is my superpower in this industry is I really love the idea of how do I get this into somebody’s hands?
How, like, how do I let them know? You’re going to love this is going to make a difference. You’re going to love it and reach the right people and do this effectively while also having fun. So that when I wake up the next day, I’m excited to go do it. And with TikTok, I was very excited every day. I would tell my husband, I’m like, today’s the day it’s going to go viral.
And he would say, spoiler alert. You’re going to get 100 views. Like you’re wrong. So as soon as it went, but now he likes it in there a little bit, like he likes occasionally being in a tick tock but he’s the grump to my sunshine. He also happens to like hate. social media. He not only doesn’t have TikTok, but he also doesn’t have Instagram.
And he only uses Facebook to show like pictures of the kids to family. So he’s like a complete opposite to me. Whereas I’m like, let’s have therapy time [00:16:00] on, and show the whole world with no completely different. I don’t even know. Did I even answer your question? You
Michael Evans: definitely did.
Okay, good. To keep it fun and enjoyable is so key. And I think that’s something that sticks through in your marketing is it doesn’t actually feel like marketing
Willow Winters: fully. Exactly. Talk to a friend. Cause my friends are what got me into writing. Reading and then writing romance. My friend Natalie read Fifty Shades of Grey.
I had no idea because I was a workaholic at the time and I had actually just left the graduate program. So it was very down low down and then I got jury duty. And she was like, here, you should read this book. So I read. My first smut novel in public. That’s awesome. Yeah but I’m like, this is, so I, it’s and I read it because of her.
She I trusted her so much. I’m like, I want to be that person for readers who are, like, gonna, and I’ve, I have introduced. Explicit romance novels to a lot of people who have then come to signings and told me you were my first. I like to be the Natalie to other people.
Like I, it’s, it sticks with you and it’s a [00:17:00] great feeling and falling in love is wonderful. So it’s easy to market that because. A, I believe it, and I’ve lived it, and B, I think it just makes people happy, so yeah. But there are some negatives of being in the public eye and having this huge audience and the ability to reach new people, and that is why the block and delete button are so very important.
Mental health matters. Block and delete, and you keep doing you. Yeah. As
Michael Evans: long as you’re not an ex you can block and delete people.
that is important. And I think one important thing to always keep in mind is to keep the passion that brought you to it, core to it, but also another thing that you’ve. Kept talking about, and that I believe in Amelia believes is so important is building a community of your readers is being able to bring them together.
But I know before this podcast, we were talking a little bit about just the idea of scaling, which we’ll return to that theme, but scaling your community. It’s one thing to be on a platform. You’re talking like Instagram tends to be more of an intimate platform and it is, but you look, you have a hundred thousand followers on [00:18:00] Instagram, which is awesome.
But how are you able to build a community when you have a scale of a readership that Is, you can’t be DMing a hundred thousand meters. I’ll put it that way.
Willow Winters: Yeah. I actually do came up with my messages on Instagram, but I don’t keep up with my comments on platforms. I, they just came out with messages on Tik TOK for message requests.
I haven’t touched it. I’m like, I’m I just can’t, cause I don’t have the time. But that’s where I think we have these parasocial relationships with books, but we also have them with people on social media. And so I do my best to keep up with messages, but I can’t always with comments. And I do have people on my team who do.
My Sophie, she’s been with me for seven years. She lives in the UK and we used to pass the torch. As I’m getting ready for bed, she’s waking up because I would be up to 2 a. m. writing. And we would update each other this is what’s going on. This is what’s going on. And I did these, you do those.
And people know Sophie now, cause she comments so much. She picks all the winners. And that’s a part I think of the community too, is that they know who’s on my team and who’s doing what. And I’ve also seen like other readers will answer. Questions on [00:19:00] my posts, like if I don’t get to it in time and I’m scrolling readers who I recognize some of their names.
Sometimes I don’t, we’ll answer the questions and it’s I think when you build your community like that, they echo what you do and they want to be all of us have different love languages. And some of them are acts of service, like mine is acts of service. So I think that they enjoy it.
And I’m just. And so I just practice gratitude. I just do as much as I can. And if I can’t, I’m very transparent, or if something is running behind or delayed, or, the good and the bad. So that way, even though it’s a parasocial relationship I’m still Here as my true self and they can see it.
And if they want to join this community and add to it, they’re probably going to add aspects that I’m the one that I’m giving. Like I’m, I try to set that example, if that makes sense.
Michael Evans: Makes total sense. And it reminded me actually of an article I was reading recently about the, cause I found it’s so fascinating how.
She scaled her community, but she is the [00:20:00] fastest growing and now highest earning creator on Onlyfans and she has a whole team that helps out with her comments and how she’s been able to do it All is by making people feel involved in the process and feel cared for and giving all of her subscribers yeah, not this.
Not, no,
Willow Winters: Not you. It’s her name. Sorry. I’m so sorry. Yeah.
Michael Evans: Yes. You’re right about who you’re talking about. We’re friends on TikTok,
Willow Winters: I think. Oh, that’s. Yeah. Cause I went to go, I’m also on OnlyFans. I barely post. I just post explicit content up. But yeah, I like I love it also because that’s that positive energy.
I’m also huge for a OnlyFans isn’t just for sex work, but I am huge for like positive sex work and safe environments, which our laws do not create at all. Like they actively work against that. So I happen to love OnlyFans. And yeah, I think what she has done is. It’s amazing. And that’s what it is.
It’s if you have love for what you’re doing and you love the people who are part of it, they’re going to a love what you’re doing and want to be a part of it and want to do [00:21:00] what you’re doing and contribute to those vibes that you’re creating. So yeah, I love
that.
Michael Evans: Yeah. And she also does something similar to you too, which is she has her team answer a lot of the comments at this point, multiple full time people, but she’s open.
And she, a lot of times there’s, in the world of subscriptions the most successful, like specific vertical would be only fans and they’ve, they have actually specific only fans agencies who manage people’s content and manage their accounts and take sometimes absolutely exorbitant fees. It can be.
Yeah, that I won’t go down that rabbit hole, but what I will say though, is that a lot of times these agencies manage accounts pretty disingenuously where they’ll take over the DMs as if they’re the creator and people can tell that she has her team
Willow Winters: act as her team. Yeah. Somebody actually messaged me on Instagram and I answered, it was like 1 a.
m. and I was like in my pajamas. I looked her up and she was like, is this actually you? And I took a selfie, like looking ragged as could be. And she was like, oh my God. I was like, yeah, this is me. I think that if you’re just transparent, people don’t mind if your team is responding, but when you’re [00:22:00] not transparent, that is when everything goes downhill.
I had an author a few years ago asked me he was a guy and he said, should I play like the rug? Should I pretend like I’m my here? And I was like, no, be yourself. Cause he’s a cool guy. He’s that moves like I just don’t know what. He’s also a man and a predominantly woman focused fields.
And I was like, just be you you’re fine as you are. I was like, when you start playing a part. It will unravel and then it’s not authentic and people are going to feel fooled. People don’t like to feel like they were wrong about you, that is the worst of the worst because in a lot of these systems, it’s almost like picking a team you’re for or against and the moment that somebody feels fooled now you’re an enemy.
It wasn’t just that you wanted to have fun and play a part or what you thought it becomes a betrayal. That’s an aspect of social media that’s also, it can be very rough. It can be very rough for people. I’ve seen an author who I think she was trying to be funny and it came off really arrogant.
And she was torn to shreds. I don’t know her. I’ve got no skin in the game. But I was just like, [00:23:00] damn if only she didn’t, if only she wasn’t trying to she was a try hard in my opinion. Sorry. Now we’re like, now we’re detouring down to gossip lane. I don’t even have wine.
Michael Evans: Oh, that’s funny. No I totally understand what you’re saying. I think, a lot of times we look to other people in the CUNY to get inspiration for how we should do things. And that can be good, except you shouldn’t actually be someone else because that’s not ever the answer.
Willow Winters: Yes, you’re worthy as you are like you’re here for a reason and people want to see you.
Michael Evans: Yeah, no I’m with you. And, one thing you were mentioning, because I actually did not know you have an OnlyFans account. I’m gonna, I’m gonna explore that, but just to check out. I probably
Willow Winters: haven’t posted in six months. I occasionally post like sexy snippets or like model photos and fun.
Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. It is.
Michael Evans: You’ve also. Done many different mediums though. And web comics was something you did do. I’m still on.
Willow Winters: Yes. Yeah. Talk, talk to us about that. It’s so slow going, but I personally love art. I spend way too much of my budget on art, [00:24:00] like fan art on inserts and overlays. And I’m doing artists renditions.
And I just I also love bringing new artists into the community because I feel like that aspect is really growing and I. it’s a positive all the way around for readers, for authors, for artists. So with the comic, my younger sister, she’s 14. And she loves manga and before she got into manga, it was comics though.
And this is three years ago. I’m still working on one book from two years ago, maybe not three. And all he’ll ever be is my book. Baby. I love it. I want it to be a video game. I want it to be a TV show. I want it to be everything. And I went to my agent cause I was like, I’m. I want this to be a comic, not that I’m going to let my 14 year old sister 12 at the time, read it that’s not going to happen.
And they said, the demand and selling, blah, blah, blah because it’s, at the time, it wasn’t, I still think that it needs to grow more. More romance books should be made into manga, especially given a lot of the explicit nature of it, but I was like, okay, I’ll do it myself then. So I reached out and I found an artist.
I loved her style. There were a few of them and [00:25:00] I really loved her work and she loved the book. We like, we played around with it. My husband was writing the script for it. Because obviously she doesn’t read these chapters and then make the art. She reads a script that has like direction and then she’ll show me a sketch, and dialogue is chosen and such.
He got to the tub scene in All Whoever Be, which is very dubious. Although there is like a, lift your hand. If you, he says, if you if you stop gripping the edge of the tub, then I’ll stop, basically. But it’s still very much dubious. And Sean came down from actually this office. Sitting right where I am right now, came into the kitchen and he said, I love you so much, but I cannot do this.
It was like, I feel wrong in ways that I should not. So I did end up hiring somebody who the artist knew in the industry who did script writing. So I have somebody who I pay he does one chapter a month and he’s way ahead of her because she can’t keep up, and do all of that art more than.
Then what she’s currently doing and each of my chapters is actually multiple chapters in a comic book, but we are almost [00:26:00] done merciless and it is on webcomics on web tunes. It’s on it was on Amazon when they had, they purchased. Comixology. Thank you. Yes. Comixology. Yes. So I’ve seen that change as well, even though I’m not as well versed in it.
All I know is that I want to be in it and it takes a lot of time and it’s been a huge investment and we are so close to having the first one done. And then I’m going to do like a big anthology of it, like the lore Olympus and Sin City. That’s probably my favorite. One of my favorite movies is Sin City and it’s because of the comic aspect.
And I have the special edition version with all the art sketches in the back. So I’m going to do that as well. When I finally put book one of all he’ll ever be, which is merciless and fully have it as a comic. Yeah. It’s exciting. It’s my, it’s a pet project basically. Love it. I just, I think that the industry could totally go there though.
There’s a huge market for it that is completely untapped.
Emilia Rose: I agree. I actually think it’s going to be huge in the next few years.
Willow Winters: Yeah. It’s going to be fun too. It’s going to be expensive though. Yeah.
Emilia Rose: I’m also doing [00:27:00] a comic. I think that’s what I reached out to you for originally. With the comic. Yeah.
expensive and it takes a long time, especially for the artist.
Willow Winters: It does, but it’s a lot of fun. And that’s, I share that with my Patreon as well. And in my newsletter, especially the little explicit parts for webtoons and comiXology, you couldn’t have that not safe for work art. I had the artists make alternative scenes so that the images are more explicit and I can share that on Patreon.
Yeah. That’s awesome. Extra fun with blush. Yeah.
Michael Evans: Yeah. Have you seen that be like a good growth driver for your subscription, the
Willow Winters: not for Patreon? Yes, absolutely. Even though it becomes difficult, like only fans to promote, like one of the things. So even though I barely post I’m in the subreddit for only fans.
Because I love getting into the nitty gritty and the dirty details of everything. My favorite pastime is looking at scandals and then seeing, are there Instagram comments on? Like, how are they handling this? Where is their PR? So I I look at all of the fire meltdowns on the OnlyFans [00:28:00] subreddit.
Michael Evans: You must have saw FanHouse then.
I
Willow Winters: didn’t. Is this recent? So I have to look at it. Okay. I thank you for that. It’s called Fanhouse. I will.
I will. Yeah. And I have tea on that. That’s behind the scenes. That’s hilarious. So this is excellent.
Here’s we got to get wine after this. Yeah. Yes. But yeah, so oh, goodness.
It was something about OnlyFans. Oh. The subreddit. Yes. so many of the very high selling OnlyFans individuals, as well as Patreon and authors within it, when you get your social media shut down, which happens very frequently and I almost got my account banned. My, it was only at 200, 000 at the time, but I was like, I’m not gonna post any more of this.
But that’s what happens and on OnlyFans, you end up losing a lot of revenue just because that’s the way that. That platform works for me. I didn’t, I’m not going to lose my patrons when I, it was just a matter of not being able to gain any more because it does become difficult. Even Instagram flagged me and Instagram doesn’t have an appeal button.
So it just, the whole post [00:29:00] got taken down and like my reach went from like a million. A month to 500, 000 instantly it just cut everything in half and it slapped me pretty hard. I didn’t appreciate that. It’s not my kink. I don’t like being slapped around. But yeah, it definitely did grow my base.
It’s just, you are struggling in the manner of actually marketing that. And if you can’t market it, you can’t use it to grow.
Michael Evans: That is really, that’s tough. That’s
Willow Winters: tough. You’ve got to get creative. There are a lot Liziana the One is an artist and she does an excellent job of marketing it well on Instagram in a censored way.
I just between everything that I have, risking… Not safe work art to grow the patron via the art when there’s so much else that I offer to and then risking harm of my social media accounts for all of my other business. Yeah, that, that scale just, it wasn’t in the favor of continuing. So it’s been a long time since I’ve actually shared my not safe for work art on the other platforms.
It stays exclusively in the patron essentially.
Michael Evans: Yeah, no, [00:30:00] that makes sense. It’s a risk reward was not there, but When it comes to social media and the other businesses, it’s helped you propped up in a big way. Your book box business is something that recently I saw that you’re moving it to a warehouse.
Willow Winters: That’s wow. Yeah. With full title. It’s fun. It’s really fun. And I think that’s why it’s doing so well. Basically I had these. The subscription boxes, right? And I had leftover merch and I always purchased extra merch so that I could list the items separately in case somebody missed out on a box, they could still get the mug or whatever it was.
And my shop grew and my shop grew and my shop grew and I had 2000 items. In my shop and books were still the number one bestseller for any authors who are listening, they were always, and they still are the number one bestsellers. But, and even with alternative covers, it’s only like 300 of those items are actually books because you have paperback, you have hardback, discreet, the normal collections, things of that nature.
And I’ve written 60 books now, but I’m sitting here with all of this merch. And I was looking around and when I was [00:31:00] taking a bath I take my baths on Sundays and I would just sit and I think, and I was like, what could be like fun? What could I do with this? Because I love doing the subscription boxes, but I was like, a lot of this is sitting and I don’t have the time to market individual items.
Which is what you have to do basically to sell it. If it’s sitting on page 48, nobody’s scrolling back there. And then the manpower to rotate these items to the front or to market them. Like it’s just, it was a lot of work and what I loved wasn’t being seen. It wasn’t resonating. So I was like, how can I do this?
So I was like, Oh, I’m Ms. Strubelex. so I’m just in my tub thinking this could be fun. And I voice messaged it to Sophie and then I text my friend, Lauren. So Sophie’s my right hand, my assistant, Lauren actually runs the shop. And I was like, this could be fun. Cause at the time I was watching crystal packing videos on Tik TOK.
It was like, that’s that’s my jam. I learned about these crystals and I see them get packed up and it’s fun. So I was like, I’m going to do this. I’m like, that sounds like fun. I did not expect it to blow up like that and I [00:32:00] love that it did. It’s been a lot of fun. I like, I don’t, I try to hold back right now.
I’ve actually paused my shot because it blew up to such a point that the cash flow. Then becomes difficult to manage because I, you have to have things on hand or people are waiting. And we went from being able to ship items purchased that day to, okay, within two weeks to, okay, eight weeks. And then another viral went off and we don’t even know which books have been, ordered.
And do we have enough of this? Do we have enough of that? What about the merchandise? Do we have enough of this? Price point for items, how long are these people going to have to wait? And there were so many questions and it became so messy that I was like, pause. Let’s pause, let’s get all these orders out, take an actual inventory and manage this a little bit differently.
And then I was like, we’re also moving into the warehouse. It’ll be perfect. We can set everything up, get everything out, take inventory counts, organize, and then hit it hard again. So I’m like I was afraid to do a mystery box every single day on my platforms [00:33:00] because I was like, we can’t sustain this.
I was like, I don’t have enough help. I don’t have enough. Room. So I’m really excited for when we go back live again. I think it’s going to be, it’s going to be a lot of fun. And I also like to shop. So that part is awesome too.
Michael Evans: Yeah, no, cause you’re getting all these incredible bookish goodies and bookish things together.
And then. Providing them and yeah, the mystery box concept is really fun. And I’m curious what with, the one thing I’d be curious about when you see like a viral video on Tik TOK is obviously you see conversion to that, that first mystery box. But are you seeing retention box over
Willow Winters: box?
Yes. Yes. Which is wonderful. Like we were looking at our numbers. I can actually bring them up. But I was like. You’re always upset whenever you have a return or somebody cancels an order. And I’ve had, since my website has been built which I think it’s been two years now, this version of it, 32,000 orders and 700 [00:34:00] cancels and 400 refunds.
So a thousand people versus 32,000 people. And I was like, that is, I think, a really good. I’ll take that every day it’s better than my one star reviews. So yeah,
Michael Evans: no, that’s
Willow Winters: really good. Yeah. So conversion and customer attention is great. I think like I was just looking at all of my statistics because we’re pausing and I wanted to look, okay, what can we do to be better?
And keep a very lean business so that it can function and delegate as much as I can, like having somebody now my team is excited to also go shopping and pick out so many items every month that are within a certain price range and we can work on that ticket. Like I make it more fun for my team too, so that they can be included and they can also take it off my plate and we can keep up with the demand because this isn’t a one person job anymore.
Like we were.
Michael Evans: Yeah, are you collaborating with brands when you go out shopping? Not yet. Okay. You should check out a startup called flagship. It’s an interesting model, but I think you could you would have to[00:35:00] you should be doing that. I’m sure you already want to I
Willow Winters: do and I’ve looked into certain things because it’d be great for co promotion.
Yeah, yes. And I also love to co promote with other authors. And I’m working on a way to handle that, which is the same thing that we’re talking about just a book rather than an item, but yeah I’m really excited for everything that’s coming. I know that I need to.
I have big plans. I have really big plans. I would love to also be like a fulfillment center for indie authors so that they can have a website and have that available for their readers without the worry of needing to actually package it up themselves and ship it out so they can get the benefit without doing the work.
Because that’s what holds back a lot of other authors from just doing signed books on their website, is that they don’t have the ability to even do it, or keep up with it, or they’re concerned about. Not being able to do it for the readers. So I have I definitely see a lot of avenues for growth.
I just want to make sure that my growing pains are withstandable. So I’m trying to do it in keep that growth from exploding. Cause that [00:36:00] is the number one killer of a lot of startups is. You can’t sustain you don’t have the cash flow or you simply can’t handle the growth and I don’t want to be that
Michael Evans: yeah, especially for boot bootstrap startups.
That would be the problem. And I think that’s something to that. Obviously the success and the specific business you have is like just nothing short of incredible and not something that you don’t see a lot of this in any author. It’s really awesome. But I think the idea of scaling too quickly and having things grow really fast is something that.
A lot of us can relate to because we don’t live in the kind of industry for most of us. That’s 10 percent growth month over month. Like that sounds nice, but it’s you’re going to see an explosion and then it’s going to quiet down and then maybe another explosion and how you handle yourself during these explosions.
It’s really key. And I see a lot of authors, like the most common mistake that I’ve made myself, a lot of other authors do is in, in your context, getting your product and being able to ship it as like actually scaling your team, actually building infrastructure and like a, in a really complicated, but also really [00:37:00] useful way.
But if you’re developing a series that’s taking off, if you stop writing that series, that’s not going to be too good for you either. So sometimes, taking the time to. Maybe it’s spaced out your releases more, make sure that next book’s going to be really great. So you’re not burning out is really important too.
So I think the fact that you were able to like, Turn that off a little bit. I’m so proud of you, but it’s also it takes a ton of confidence to be confident enough that you can go back at it and get it all again. Cause so many people are worried that this is the one feast I’ll ever have.
Willow Winters: Exactly. And what happens if you can’t maintain that momentum? And what happens at level, what, what happens if you don’t though? You got to protect yourself and reserve your resources, which includes your energy and your sanity and. A lot of people have seen my living room and if we went downstairs, like it’s, there are boxes everywhere.
And at some point you have to, you first of all, it’s always going to be there. And when one door closes, eight others open like you can’t, it’s not your only feast. Like [00:38:00] this might only be a blip in my memory and 20 years, remember when you started? And this was like, You got to do what you got to do to protect, to reserve, and to sustain.
And a part of that sometimes is saying no. There’s a great book called Essentialism. I want to say it’s Gregory something or Maybe it’s Gregory something. I’m not sure it’s somewhere in this room right here, but it’s all about the ability of delegating and the ability of saying no. And how saying no is actually more helpful than harmful.
But so many people have this negative connotation that you don’t want to say. No, you don’t want to stop. You don’t want to change the status quo. And it’s that’s what you have to do sometimes. And it’s actually for the best of everybody. Yeah, I’m, I like saying no sometimes, even though it looks like all I do is say yes.
Okay.
Michael Evans: Yes. No, because that’s the, what we see publicly when we see anyone successful in anything is what they did do. And we’ll never get to see what they didn’t do, but oftentimes that’s why they’re successful.
Willow Winters: Yeah. I have two little, it’s a great book. Even not even just for our industry, just a great life book, but I have two little thoughts.
One [00:39:00] is it takes several years to become an overnight. Success, like I tell myself that all the time and I tell other people that like, we always you see these people blow up and it’s Oh my God, if only, and it’s it will, it just keep going, literally just keep going. And then the other thing is every time I feel like I’ve let myself down or this is the worst thing in the whole world.
I think to myself, Stephen King has already failed more times than I have even tried. So I need to get my ass back up and keep going. Because if he can fail that many times, I can fail more. That is my goal. I want to fail more times than him.
Michael Evans: That, that is an amazing goal. It’s so funny because we were just having a conversation this week in the Facebook group about failure.
And I was like, there’s a beauty to giving one yourself the permission to fail and to being able to fail. Fail quickly, being able to realize Hey, I’m going to try something new. You created 2000 products in your store. I mean that, that deserves a restatement, 2000.
Willow Winters: My husband hates it. He’s you have a shopping problem, [00:40:00] but yeah, we should fall in love with failing.
Because when you fail, there’s so much positive that comes from it. I’ve done a lot of shadow work. I, I absolutely love looking into all that darkness and analyzing it and finding the grades in it. But when you fail, there are like psychologically, socially, emotionally, there are so many positives that come from it, so much growth and learning experience, and you have to fail to get there, you have to fail to feel it and to be in it and to realize it so many times.
So failing isn’t a bad thing. Failing is it’s, we should fall in love with failing. We should fall in love with Philly. That would be a good title. That would be a good self help title. That is another favorite pastime of mine to figure out what would be a good title.
Michael Evans: That, that is very, it’s very useful for book titles, product titles, anything.
I can see that on a t shirt, but now I do want to ask with. All of this going on, obviously writing is the most important thing, correct? As how are you able to be [00:41:00] CEO? Willow winters and author willow winters on the same day?
Willow Winters: My readers can tell you my writing has slowed dramatically which sucks, but it’s because of this growth and because I haven’t been able to delegate.
And let go as quickly as I would like to, I have had multiple explosions. I’ve also had a child and he is a little demon, so he’s an adorable little demon. But yeah, so my writing has definitely slowed down and that’s one thing my team, again, that was something we felt like we failed at this past summer.
It was supposed to be my summer of smut. I had so many things that I wanted to write and instead I do have one. I actually made it into a novel paranormal. I thought it was just going to be a novella and I’m almost done my second novella. It’s at 45, so it’s actually almost a novel, but it won’t hit, it won’t hit it.
But it’s just smutty paranormal. And that’s what I wanted to focus. I had so many ideas for the summer and so many plans and my team keeps saying the best thing is for you to write and we’re going to get there. We’re going to get there. But then we have hiccups with the warehouse. And then the shop kept growing and we bring on new people and we need more training, but my shop manager can’t train because it [00:42:00] all can’t be done at her.
It was in her basement and now it’s in her basement and dining room and living room also. I had to step in and take care of this baby while I’m waiting to hand it off to the warehouse space and delegating as I should. So hiccups have definitely prevented me for going back to my writing.
But every time I travel, I write or I’m inspired to write like when we went to London and I couldn’t sleep and my husband was passed out. I slept on the plane. He can’t sleep on planes. He is passed out and storing and I got hit for an inspiration for this Hades and Persephone that I’m writing. So I’m just typing in the middle of the night and every time I’m on a plane, I bring my.
laptop, just in case, because I really enjoy writing on planes. And if I don’t, that’s fine. I don’t have the pressure on me right now because the one book that’s on pre order is done. And I didn’t make any others because things were exploding so quickly. So I don’t have the pressure to, but the fact that I still want to, and at the moment I’m free of other responsibilities.
My first instinct with quiet time is. To jot out this thought real quick. So I’m, as long as I hold onto it and we’re making [00:43:00] strides so that I will have the time for it. I’m keeping that as a win. I’m definitely keeping that as a win. And not only that, but financially, because I do need the money coming in.
And in the indie world, I think we often think of ourselves as athletes where you need to be playing. You need to be making that money and you do get burnout. And a lot of people to the left and right of you aren’t there in a few years. But because of the growth and because of how I’ve. Really stuck to my branding and the love of books.
My back catalog is. Flourishing, like it is definitely my best year financially and we’ve more than doubled over the last three years consistently without having to push out new releases. So I think that’s another thing that I hold on to is you’ve, I’ve written 60 books, they’re only short novels, they’re like 55k novellas and some co writtens, like 12 of them are co written, but I’ve written 60 books.
I should be able to. Sustain that and hold on to writing as my passion and my love, which I’m there. So I’m like, it’s a win. Did I write as much as I want to write? No. And I always [00:44:00] feel far more victorious when I write a chapter compared to, sending out a hundred boxes. Writing is it’s still my lifeline.
So I’m happy. I just still have the passion. Keeping that
Michael Evans: passion there, keeping it fun. Yes.
Willow Winters: Exactly.
Michael Evans: Hashtag goals. Your hashtag goals. I love it. Thank you. I love it. Now I have to ask you this last question, which everyone’s going to be curious, which is where can we find you? I know you actually have an author tier.
I do. I know you have a lot of different things going on, so why don’t you. I
Willow Winters: had a TikTok just for authors and it got banned. I know I’m like, people suck. Like I get reported all the time. But what did you report on my Tik Tok for author support? Or I like, I have no idea. And if you don’t appeal shit, it can go really bad.
And I hadn’t been on it in three months. Yeah. So I’m like, so I don’t have my author Tik Tok anymore. Which sucks. But I do have my author Patreon tier which has access to a lot of things. So there is that for author insight and knowledge. And I’m also open, like if people send me emails or message me, that’s cool.
And I used to be very active in [00:45:00] Facebook groups, but like I’m running a mile a minute right now and a little bit burned out. So hopefully once this all is delegated and. Fingers crossed we move in to this warehouse in the next week, I will be more present and available for things of that nature and maybe get another TikTok author account going with some insight.
I had some great. Insight on that account. But yeah, so if you’re looking for the author insight right now It’s really just primarily on patreon, but I don’t bite if you have a question and you want to ask I will answer and then for everything else, i’m on every platform There is including only fans, even though I think you might be disappointed if you go there, as it’s not super exciting.
Cause they don’t post a lot, but I’m there. Yeah.
Michael Evans: That’s great to hear. And definitely really worth checking out Willow’s site as well, which will be linked in the description because with, and. You have the multiple sites you have for all, for your book boxes and . It’s really inspiring.
This was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for I [00:46:00] loved it too.
Willow Winters: I felt I feel very fulfilled with it. I love it when I talk my, like my husband calls it my hippie dippy stuff and I’m like, I love it when I get to talk it and people understand it. Yeah. we’re with you. We’re with you.
Yes. He’s with me too. He just likes to make fun of me
Michael Evans: that’s a healthy amount of that is it is
Willow Winters: it is, yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This has been wonderful.
Michael Evans: And that’s it for this podcast with Willow Winters. Huge thank you to Willow for coming on. Just still in awe by everything she’s accomplished. And really, some people, when you get to meet them, you just go, wow, they’re such a sweet, such a nice person. I’ve got that feeling with Willow. Me and Emilia wish nothing but the greatest success to Willow.
And are so excited that we got to learn from her and with her today. And I hope you all learned a lot too. We got more new episodes coming every week. We have a new episode, a new interview, or a new solo episode, depends on the vibe. It’s gonna be all about helping you start, grow, and succeed in subscriptions as an author.
If you want to tune into future episodes, subscribe to us if you’re on YouTube. If you’re listening to on a podcast player, save this [00:47:00] podcast. We have tons of amazing episodes that you can also go back and listen to. Almost everyone is packed with tons and tons of insights that it just… I hope you go back and start listening to them.
But if not, we’ve got some amazing episodes coming up. We’ve got an amazing episode with Ariel all about fandom and how authors can build their fandom. We have Pia, Pia Rabanari coming on. They are amazing. And they’re finally coming on. Pia, it’s been so long. Ah, so we have some great episodes coming up. I’ll see y’all soon.
But in the meantime, Don’t forget, storytellers rule. The world.